Broadcast - Anzac Day reflections, veteran support reform and ADF workforce trends

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Defence Connect Podcast
Thursday, 23 April 2026

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STEPHEN KUPER, HOST:  Well g'day, everybody, Steve Kuper, at Defence Connect, I hope you are well. And we are in the week of NDS. In fact, we are a day out from what will no doubt be quite a busy day for everybody in the Defence industry, the Defence and national security environment. But we're also a bit over a week out from Anzac Day, which is the most solemn day of the year for people around Australia as we come together to remember the sacrifices made by service men and women throughout the conflicts of the last 150 years that have gone into making Australia the country that it is. And with that solemn note in mind, I am joined from a friend from the West, the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs and Minister for Defence Personnel Matt Keogh, he's a returning guest – Minister how are you mate?

MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL MATT KEOGH: Steve I'm very well and thank you very much for having me back.

KUPER: Thank you. Thank you for making the time to do it. I know you're busy, especially in the weeks leading up to Anzac Day, and as I touched on the National Defence Strategy and IIP tomorrow, which your colleague, the Deputy Prime Minister, will be launching at the Press Club. First things first, anything we should be looking out for?

KEOGH: I don't want to give the game away obviously I don't want to give the game away, but I don't think it comes as any surprise to anyone. And this is things that you know, the Richard the Defence Minister and Pat Conroy, Minister for Defence industry, have been talking about for some time. You know, we continue to ramp up our expenditures in building Defence capability. You'll see that reflected in the IIP that's released tomorrow as well. And obviously, that's not just about spending more. It's about getting the right capabilities and bringing those online more quickly as well. So I think that'll be the key thing you'll see in terms of the IIP. And then, of course, there's the continuation of what are some really big projects. I mean, everyone focuses on AUKUS and AUKUS Pillar 1 is incredibly important, as is Pillar 2, which often, sometimes, gets overlooked. But in this rapidly evolving world, the technologies that are under development there are incredibly important as well. They're big projects. And I think what you have seen under the term of our Government, particularly having done the Defence Strategic Review leading into the first NDS and now the second NDS and coming out tomorrow, is that recapitalisation of the Navy, for example, and that reprioritisation of capability acquisition to make sure that we have a Defence Force with the right capabilities at the right time for the things it needs to do, in particular in our region.

KUPER: And we have seen there's also this week, there was the announcement of a new look Defence leadership team, with Vice Admiral Johnson becoming Chief of Defence Force, and Lieutenant General Susan Coyle becoming Chief of Army, for the first time we have a woman in 125 year history of the Australian Army, from your hat as the Minister for Defence Personnel - exciting times?

KEOGH: I think it is always an exciting time when we see, you know, leadership change through the Defence Force. And I think, you know, with Admiral David Johnson moving on, Mark Hammond coming…

KUPER: Sorry, Mark Hammond, yes,

KEOGH: as the New Chief of the Defence Force. And you know, Mark first Submariner to be the Chief of the Defence Force, also first person to come in as a rating, as an enlisted member of the Defence Force, now coming all the way up to becoming Chief of the Defence Force. And I think when you look at Mark's story and experience, you know that is a story of determination, resilience, grit, exactly what we need in leading the Defence Force going forward. Obviously, Susan, in coming the new Chief of Army, a hugely capable person who's had command roles, the work that she's been doing as the Chief of Joint Capability, particularly around the areas of Space and Cyber, those two domains that are becoming and have become so important in the work that we do across Defence and particularly across the region, brings a great wealth of experience from what she's been doing there into leading Srmy as the new Chief of Army, and also Matt Buckley coming in as new Chief of Navy as well, Matt again, Submariner, which means, importantly, he’s spent a lot of time in Western Australia, which, of course, as a Western Australian, I always regard as important. But also our biggest Navy base is in Western Australia. And of course, it's where our submarines are based…

KUPER: for the time being…

KEOGH: and that's where they will continue to always be based in Western Australia. And he will be a great leader there for Chief of Navy as well. And I've had a lot to do with all three of these individuals in my roles, and I really look forward to their leadership and but I also really want to acknowledge the great work that David Johnson has done as CDF over the last couple of years. Really grateful for his leadership and also advice, but also, Simon Stewart, who will be leaving as Chief of Army. Look, he's a Western Australian. He's a Gosnells boy, went to the old Gosnell Senior High School in my electorate, now Southern River College. And again, someone who came in as an enlisted soldier worked his way all the way to becoming Chief of Army. A great story there of service and of leadership, and he has undertaken a really important job following the Defence Strategic Review and the first National Defence Strategy in terms of that reprioritisation of capability that's had a big impact on Army, making sure that they're focused on the things that we need them to be focused on, in terms of delivering capability in what we need to do in the region in particular, that's been a big job that he's undertaken on behalf of the nation while he's been Chief of Army. And we thank all of those you know Simon and David as they move on.

KUPER: And it's interesting that you touch on the fact that Simon and Mark have both entered as enlisted rather than as officers. It really goes to show that it's a career. The ADF is a career. And I know I don't want to, don't want to pinch any of the recruiting taglines, but it certainly is a it is a you can see a visible pathway going in from a seaman through or an average infantry soldier, all the way through to becoming Chief of Army.

KEOGH: I think it's a great example of the variation that's available in Defence for anyone who's looking for a different career option where the people stay for four years, six years, 10 years, 20, 30, 40, years. Those opportunities are all there for people across 300 different roles that you can do across five domains of Sea, Air, Land, Cyber, Space, we're now directly recruiting into space operations as well, which, you know, opens up a world of opportunity for people that is quite different to what's been there before. And of course, you can now be directly recruited into nuclear submarine roles as well.

KUPER: I have seen those popping up on seek.

KEOGH: Yes, a lot of people have been telling me they've been seeing a lot more of these roles coming up on the internet, which is great. People are seeing that, and they're taking up those opportunities. And, you know, coming in as a, into the nuclear submarine roles, means you're coming into the Australian Defence Force. You're going to do some training overseas, whether that's in the UK or the US. We're building a new capability there. And we've seen in Western Australia, you know, the rotation of submarines from the US and then the UK will be starting shortly, and we've already been doing maintenance work on US submarines in Western Australia as well. So that capability is building. You know, we're going well in terms of that pathway toward nuclear capability here in Australia for a nuclear propelled submarine.

KUPER: And one of the things that Defence industry is very, very good at is having that pipeline from people who have been in uniform, through to the industry, drawing on their experience, their expertise, and even just their knowledge base of how the system works, which is increasingly important. Part of that comes back to the Royal Commission into the Veteran Suicide and Veterans Affairs, which I don't think we can beat around the bush, there were some horrific findings in that and systemic failures over decades. And if we're going to send our men and women off to fight and potentially lay down their lives for the nation and our interests, they only rightfully expect that they are going to be looked after or their families are going to be looked after. With careers in mind, how are we going in terms of getting vets into careers and growing their skills and experience to help them transition into that next stage of life?

KEOGH: There is so much to unpack.

KUPER: I know I'm sorry,

KEOGH: Steve, but I think what I'll say is this, firstly, the Royal Commission really did lay bare where the failures had been. And you know, 122 recommendations Government's getting on with that job of implementation. We've already implemented over a quarter of those. We'll have two thirds of them implemented by the end of this year. The most important recommendation that the Royal Commission identified was that there be a statutory oversight body monitoring Government's implementation of recommendations overlooking the ecosystem, we legislated that in February last year. It's been up and running since September. We've really been working at pace to try and get these things done, because it's so important for the people, but it's also really important for the people that we want to have as well. Because if we're going to be asking people to put on the Australian Defence uniform in whatever service they choose to serve in, they need to know that they'll be looked after when they come home, no matter what may impact them during their service. And the reforms that are set there in the Royal Commission, both in terms of how they're treated when they're in service and after service, are incredibly important from that point of view, one of the key areas of focus of the Royal Commission, though, was about, how do we particularly assist in that what can be a vulnerable moment for veterans, which is that point of transition from full time service to a career that is more civilian. And it's not just at that point, but it can also be sort of up to a few years afterwards. Sometimes a veteran can transition very. Well into, oh, yeah, I've got a job. I'm going to that. That's fine. And then a couple years down the track, sometimes the wheels come off.

KUPER: and the peculiarities of service kind of catch up.

KEOGH: Yeah, and there's been, you know, they've sort of, there's a bit of a rush of, how do I manage the logistics and the practicality of transition? And then other things catch up with you afterwards down the track. And so what we have been focused on is both of those elements. So part of that is setting up the new Wellbeing Agency that the Royal Commission recommended, and that'll be up and running the middle of this year, and that will be helping not just with that point of transition, sort of the lead up to transition out of the Defence Force and post, but also being available then as people progress with their civilian careers, to provide that greater wellbeing, assistance and support and referral pathfinding in terms of service delivery for the veteran community and families as they progress, that's really important. But one of the things that we know is one of the great strivers of success, though, is making sure that a veteran goes into a good job when they leave Defence and is able to stay in a good job or move on to another good job, if that's what they need to do, as their careers progress. And the first thing I'd say though about that is, you know, I want people to stay in Defence, have a great career in Defence for as long as they are able. And that will be different for different people, for different family scenarios and everything else we get. People will leave at different times. Not everyone goes to be CDF, but when they do choose to leave, you know, we've got a group of people, they signed up for a reason, like they want to give to their country. They've got a sense of service and obligation, and you know, thank God that they do. So they're looking for continuing a sense of fulfillment and contribution. And so Defence industry is so critical to that, because it marries up both their sense of continuing to contribute to the sovereign capability of the country, because they are literally designing, building, developing the tools, equipment and capabilities that their brothers and sisters still in the Defence Force will be using, and they're able to use their experience to benefit the people who come after them, and so it's a win - win for them as an individual and for the Defence Force and the nation, frankly and particularly because when people transition out, we want to keep them still engaged and active in the reserves as well. So there will be times where the person who's doing the maintenance on the helicopter in the polo shirt, puts the camo back on to go and be able to do that continued maintenance or technical support when that helicopter deploys, as an example. And so that's really important. But the other thing, more broadly is recognising that we spend millions of dollars on training people. We create the best people. They've got great teamwork skills, they're resilient, they can work well under time pressure or any other pressure for that matter, they're great leaders. These are all the soft skills, as they're sometimes called, that any employer benefits from. And I come across employers all the time who literally come to me and say, how do I find more veterans? Like they know they've understood. And one of the things we've been doing as part of the veteran employment program is actually promoting to employers. Hey, veterans are really good deal for your business.

KUPER: I think last time we spoke, we were talking about the Veterans Employment Program  - catch me up!

KEOGH: Yeah, there was different elements to that. So part of that was a promoting to business, the benefits of employing veterans, no matter what industry, yep, you know, no matter whether it's Defence industry or anything else, the benefits of employing veterans. And so we've been doing that and but also providing additional resources for businesses as well, so that they're best prepared to be able to support veterans in their workplace. We've revamped the Veteran Employment Covenant, so that's where businesses say, hey, we want to employ veterans, and we're a good place for a veteran to work. And so it's now a tiered system in terms of yep we want to employ veterans all the way through to we run a veterans organisational group within our workplace, we've got policies around not just supporting veterans, but making sure they can easily go and do reserve service or if they need to access medical appointments, because that's, you know, the nature of the what's come with them through their service and really reaching out and trying to be a veteran Employer of Choice, which is the top level.

And that's great, because it says you've got good employers, and you're able to sell those good employers opportunities to the veteran community - hey, that's a veteran Employer of Choice - so we really encourage people to wherever their business is able to slot into those tiers of the Veteran Employment Covenant, to get engaged with that.

The other thing is, Defence has for a little while been running a program around making sure that when someone transitions out, that they're able to convert their trade qualification into a recognised vocational qualification in the civilian world. And the reality is, and this is a problem for national productivity generally, to qualify in Queensland is different to qualify in Victoria different to qualify in WA so Defence can't qualify you in service, because you're going to move around. And there's various different qualification requirements. What we do do, though, is, when you're transitioning out, if you have a particular skilled trade in Defence, we'll work out, well, what's the things that you're okay you're going to be leaving and going to Queensland? And what's the thing that you need in Queensland, or if you're going to WA, what's the thing in WA, so that you can get that trade qualification, what's then been missing? And we've enhanced that to make sure that that's working. Well, what has been missing, though, is that tertiary level opportunity.

KUPER: Okay?

KEOGH: And so we've been doing a Recognition of Prior Learning program, which has been through grants funding various universities around the country to set up entry pathways for veterans, where their skills training and experience are recognised for advanced standing towards University qualifications. So making sure that you know, if you wanted to do whatever the degree is, you go well actually, because you've done all of these other things whilst you've been in Defence, you don't need to do those units. So instead of it being a three year degree, it might, you might knock it off in two years. Yeah. But also, we recognize that you're coming from, you know, especially if someone came into Defence enlisted school leaver, spends, you know, seven years in Defence is coming out. That's been a very different lifestyle in terms of, you know, when you're doing training, very directive, very you'll do this, and you'll go to this place to do it. And this is how it'll happen, to a university study experience which is very self directed, yeah, making sure that there's supports there to sort of assist people with that very different mode of study as a veteran. So making sure that we're helping our veterans get quality when they want tertiary level qualification, that they're able to get that, and that positions them well, for them getting employment as well.

KUPER: And how are you seeing the uptake on that? Is there, are they more skewed towards more of the technical trades, or is there a little bit more balance?

KEOGH: I mean, I guess trades is the obvious thing, because it's what people might have been more likely to have been doing in their service. But the universities that I've gone around to and met with, where we provided these grants, and they've opened these systems, and we've only been funding this for a couple of years, so they're in the early stages, have had really good take up, especially in Queensland, where the vast majority of the Defence Force is, particularly Army, which has been really good. And I think that will continue to grow as that becomes more available and more known, that that's something that is there to support people. But the other thing we've done is opened up study opportunities whilst people are in service as well. So previously, you really had to be able to draw a direct link between I've got this role and I want to study this course and the two things are directly related in order to get it approved. Now we've opened that up to make it broader, and that's recognising that we do see, one we're always better off as a Defence force when people have a broader education, and it might help them move from one role to another role…

KUPER: I think we’re better off as a society, when people have more access to information…

KEOGH: absolutely but the other thing, more almost selfishly, if you like, but I think it helps the individuals as well, is that you would see people go, ah, and I'll give you, this is a bit of a random example, but you know, I'm looking to become a real estate agent. I'm looking to do something else after Defence, sure, but I know in order to do this other thing, I need to do this other course to qualify for that thing. So I'm going to leave Defence all the way back here to make sure, then I can go do this course so I can then become that other thing.

Well, if we can get you to do that course while you're in Defence, we keep you for another 1, 2, 3, years,

KUPER: yeah,

KEOGH: you might even stay longer than that,

KUPER: yeah,

KEOGH: but even if you still follow on your pathway but I want to do this course and go off and become this other thing, we've still kept you in service for an amount of time by letting you do that study in service, yeah? As opposed to, oh, you've got to leave to do that. Yep. And so that's a win win, both for the Defence force and the nation and the individual Defence member, and they may end up staying longer anyway.

KUPER: Which is a better outcome for Defence. We know that Defence has been struggling over the past couple of years for retention and recruitment. Last time we spoke, you were particularly chuffed with the way recruitment and retention figures were trending, how we looking at the moment?

KEOGH: So the end of last financial year, we started to see growth return to the Defence Force. You know, when we came into Government, the Defence Force was shrinking, and that was a pretty big problem where we need to grow the Defence Force. Last financial year, we enlisted over 7,000 people. That meant, that combined with a lower separation rate, so the rate in which people were leaving is now like all time lows. And so we're the biggest recruitment year in 15 years. So that saw the Defence Force grow. So we're basically at the moment in terms of what we were targeting in numbers, we're about we're in terms of the size of the Defence Force. We're about hitting that target. So that's good. That was last financial year. This financial year, the target for recruitment grows again. So like we keep making that target bigger and bigger and bigger in terms of how many we want to recruit, we haven't hit the target of what we want to recruit, but the number of people we have recruited is up on last year.

KUPER: yep.

KEOGH: So there is still absolutely more work to do around getting more people into the system and into our Defence Force, but it's now going in the right direction. Less people are leaving. People are staying in the Defence Force longer. More people have been applying, and we've been getting them through the application process more quickly. And that's where a lot of the work actually needs to happen. I mean, we've, there was a significant increase a few years ago on the amount we spend on Defence Force Recruitment advertising, you know, getting that message out there about the 300 different roles, the opportunity, and also moving the balance, if you like, of that advertising work from just being billboards and television and a bit of cinema to being a lot more social media led and in game advertising and Tiktok, and where the eyeballs that we need to see it are able to see it, and that's proven to be successful. We're getting more applications. The other thing we need to do, though, is get people through that application process more quickly. And when we came into Government, it would take, on average, over a year for someone to come through. Now it's down to about 260, odd days now that is a significant improvement, but also much, still longer than I would like it to be,

KUPER: yep,

KEOGH: and longer than when we're targeting it to be. So there's still more work to do, and we're working with our private sector recruitment partners to bring that time down so that we can get people through. Because what we don't want to do is lose people, not because they don't want to join the Defence Force, but because it took so long they found another job, and so we want to make sure we're capturing as much of that as possible, and we've been able to do that more successfully. So that's really good, but we've still got more improvement to make there in what we call the critical roles, like the ones where we are finding we're say more short than other areas, we obviously are prioritising bringing those people through. Yep, we can do that in about 150 days. So that's again, much quicker. Well, it's less than half what the average was before, and it's much quicker than what it is across the board. And so that's a good sign, like we can make the system in a targeted way, work quite quickly to bring people through, and we just need to sort of get that applying across the board for recruitment. But we should see the by the end of this financial year that we recruited even more than we did last year, also a higher percentage of people against the target, and the target would have been higher. So they're all good signs, and the separation rate has continued to stay at this quite low level, which is really good because, you know, when we came into Government, that separation rate had been much, much higher, above the average, so the long term average. So that was a problem.

KUPER: That's very good news to hear, given the way the world is at the moment.

KEOGH: Yeah,

KUPER: and it's very important that we look after our people, men and women in uniform, and just back to what where progress is in the aftermath of the Royal Commission, you've got an ex-service organisation, peak body still being co-designed with veterans input.

KEOGH: yeah,

KUPER: We know that, particularly for a lot of younger veterans, they don't necessarily feel attached to return service organisations like the RSL or Legacy, that's not an indictment on anybody. That's just the sense that they give. And whenever we're out at Defence events, it's something that's quite common for younger people, particularly people in my demographic, they just they don't feel that connection to those organisations. They find them to be stuffy and very confining and very clicky. And there's also a disconnect in the conflicts that they served in compared to Vietnam or Korea. I don't think we got any second world war vets left alive.

KEOGH: No, we've got, we've got less than 2000 but they are

KUPER: still very, again, very different. How's that coming along? We're moving in the right direction.

KEOGH: I think we are moving in, definitely in the right direction. And I think you've seen this, this issue of who best represents is a but one that's played out for 100 years.

KUPER: Yep,

KEOGH: the Second World War people had difficulty with the RSL being run by people from the First World War. Korean War soldiers were often told they hadn't fought in a real war for some reason, Vietnam were completely shunned them, and they ended up setting up things like the Vietnam Veterans Association because they were so shunned by the RSLs. Now the RSLs are largely run by people who fought in the Vietnam War, and there's a real, I guess, variation, if you look at it, at a sub-branch level of some sub-branches are now run by contemporary veterans in their 40s they've got rid of the pokies. They you know, and they do family days and sporting events, and they're doing it the way they want to do it, and it's very successful. And they're getting more and more young veterans join them, and that's great. Other sub-branches are very much targeted, still, towards a cohort that are older than 60, and that's what they're doing. And some of them are, it's interesting engaging with them. And some of them like, we want young veterans to join, we just don't know how to do that, or we'd like young veterans to join. But the reality is, our sub-branch is in a suburb or an area where no one can afford to buy those houses anyway, and so there aren't any young veterans there, and then you've got other sub branches that are just, we just do what we do, and, you know, whatever,

KUPER: and stuck in their ways.

KEOGH: I'm not here to tell the RSL or any other veteran organisation how to run themselves. I think, though, what it does mean is that there has been, whilst there's sort of a smattering of organisations out there that are attempting to and do represent the interests of more contemporary veterans, they don't have the footprint of an RSL, and that is difficult. And we, you know, as the Department of Veterans’ Affairs does have a young veterans consultative forum, for example, to try and make sure that that voice is being heard and taken into account by Government. And I try to make sure that I'm engaging with contemporary veterans as well as other veterans as much as possible. So I'm getting those different voices and those different experiences. But that is where a peak body that is properly representative is able to do a lot of good work, if the veteran community can come together behind one so, but the thing that I told the Royal Commission when they were asking me about this was that if you're going to have a peak body, it's got to properly represent, you know, all three services, Western Australia and the Northern Territory and Canberra and Queensland and Tasmania and everywhere in between. It's got to represent people who fought in the Second World War to the people who are just, you know, exiting Duntroon or Pucka or wherever you know, Wagga, today.

KUPER: Yeah.

KEOGH: And that's a hard ask, right? Ask any peak body organisation. I used to run a peak body when I was a lawyer,

KUPER: yeah?

KEOGH: Like trying to represent the cross section of any community is difficult.

KUPER: Is difficult yeah.

KEOGH: I don't think it's impossible, though, and there's there are not to say that you would ever do a direct copy, because that wouldn't work. But, you know, there are precedents for this. I mean, the UK had two peak bodies for a while for veterans. They ended up merging to create that combined voice. So I think it's important the community in Australia is working on it. There is, you’re right to identify a bit of a concern from some groups about whether other large organisations would properly represent them, or how do they feel about that? I will, though, give a shout out to the new National RSL President, Peter Tinley. He is a contemporary veteran, and so that has represented generational change in the leadership there. And if you look at the State Presidents of the RSL, they're all largely contemporary veterans as well. So there is you are getting that diversity.

KUPER: It's interesting. You would think that, given the nature of the operations in Afghanistan and to a lesser extent, Iraq, that the Vietnam vets and the G What vets would have, there'd be a bit of overlap in their experiences and the type of war in which they fought. So there could be some common ground there for them to fight on?

KEOGH: I'll tell you one of the most beautiful experiences I've seen with veterans. I had the honour of representing Australia at commemorative services for the 70th anniversary of the beginning of the Korean War a few years ago. And we brought over, I think it was eight Korean War veterans from Australia. We also had members of the Federation Guard with us for part of the commemorative activities at the Australian Memorial in a cemetery in Korea. And we took them out for lunch afterwards together. And the interactions between those current serving members and these guys who served in the Korean War, which had started 70 years earlier, was amazing. And the stories they were able to share with each other, and the common bond and experience between very different experiences of conflict and war was great. And I think deep down, when you get people to sit down and talk to each other, it's fine, that's a good thing, right? But you only need one person to be *** and then other people are like I don't want to do that, and it's all uncomfortable and stuff, you know? And so that's the challenge you're always having to confront, which is unfortunate, but there is a lot more actually in common than not.

KUPER: Yeah,

KEOGH: and I was talking to some people about this the other day. If you think about, often, people talk about, oh, what's a contemporary veteran? Oh, it's someone who served in the first Iraq War, Desert Storm. The American called it Desert Storm, or, subsequently, yeah, East Timor and afterwards, well, you could be in your 60s, yeah. And be a contemporary veteran now, right?

KUPER: Yeah. I was talking to somebody yesterday,

KEOGH: and we left, you know, like Afghanistan started 25 years ago.

KUPER: Yeah, this year, yeah.

KEOGH: So, yeah, we only left a few years ago. But if you were someone who went in, you know, you could have done East Timor and been on the first rotation who went into Afghanistan, yeah, that was 25 years ago, yeah. So, yeah our conceptualisation of veterans, contemporary veterans, the span of that cohort is completely

KUPER: Yeah,

KEOGH: and I think some of the differences actually are not about, I mean, you know, those battles and conflicts are all different, but it's actually more about, well, a lot of these people are middle aged, they've got careers, they've got kids. They're not able to just hang around at an RSL or any other venue for that matter. They're trying to get the kids to soccer after school or whatever it is, and they're is, and they're living their lives and trying to make that work, and whatever challenges they've got, physically, mentally or other, family, work at the moment, like that's the thing most of them are focused on. And that's a very different set of needs to someone who's retired,

KUPER: yeah, sure,

KEOGH: yeah, and that's what we expect,

KUPER: yeah,

KEOGH: but it will. It also means, in about a decade, you're going to have this big chunk of people who will be approaching or, start, or be in retirement, who then become available all of a sudden, you know, their kids are older. To be like to become advocates, yep, to start providing volunteer services and commit and do want to join the committee of their local RSL Sub-Branch, or some, whatever other organisation they're running to provide that service and support to their own peers and to veterans coming after them, and that's a good thing, but there's this sort of gap at the moment where a lot of these people are actually working age and they're out working.

The Royal Commission chairperson Kaldas made this point in his National Press Club address. The vast majority of people who serve in our Defence Force, have a great experience in Defence and go on to have very successful careers afterwards. You know, we understandably in my job, I end up focusing on the problems, on the things that need to be done better, where the gap is,

KUPER: yeah,

KEOGH: but we shouldn't let where we end up having, you know, rightly paying attention to those things. Let people have this impression that, oh, you know, all veterans are broken like you cannot let that be what people walk away with, I think, and whenever, whenever I, whenever any Member Of Parliament, whenever anyone in the street has any engagement with our Defence Force, sees what they do, talks to them about what they do, gets to go out and see what they do, you just walk away go, Wow, these guys are and girls, you know, incredibly capable, very good at what they do,

KUPER: yep.

KEOGH: I, you know, I feel safer at night because of I know that we're in good hands, right? And they take that, and they then go into civilian life after, and they continue to be great at what they do, yeah? And that is what the vast majority experience is, and that's a really good thing,

KUPER: yeah?

KEOGH: And that's the thing we should celebrate and we should acknowledge, and that should be our takeaway view. But there are some people that really need extra help and we got to make sure we're there for them.

KUPER: Yeah, it's the old squeaky wheel gets the…

KEOGH: sure and you know what? They deserve to get that? Yeah, they deserve it. Like I'm not, I'm not complaining about people being a squeaky wheel, they need to get what they deserve, absolutely. But that's not the majority experience.

KUPER: no, no. And that goes a long way to framing people's appetites, to joining Defence. I think there is, in some ways, there's a bit of a disconnect between the realities of what conflict entails and what that looks like, and then what happens on the other side of it. And to your point, the vast majority have, go on, to have long, lasting, impactful lives and careers and families and all of those things, but there are people who are unfortunately hurt. That's just the nature of the business. And that brings me to one of my final points. Anzac Day is coming up, commemorations 111 years since the Anzac landings. I nearly said D Day landings. We were talking about the new movie about Ike before, and I got that on my brain. What will you be doing for Anzac Day?

KEOGH: So I'll be traveling to Papua New Guinea

KUPER: Oh, very nice

KEOGH: for commemorations there. So that's what I will be doing, but I think you know the thing about ANZAC day for me. I mean, you know, I've got relatives who fought in the Western Front in the First World War, relatives who died in the Second World War as well. But as a Local MP, it was one of the frustrations, I have this great honor of going to these amazing places on Anzac Day to represent the nation in places that are really important to the national psyche. Gallipoli, the Western Front, Kokoda, you know these… and it's important to do that, to also continue to maintain the stories and the history and the significance of those things for the public and for each new generation coming through. And that's why we send a pack out to every school in the country before Anzac day, and we send a pack out to every school around Remembrance Day so that they've got all the materials there to be able to run their services. And, you know, we fund flagpoles all the time in schools, and that's really important.

KUPER: yeah.

KEOGH: In Armadale, in Western Australia, in my electorate, the War Memorial is, Cenotaph, isn't stone, it's made of brick. Armadale was a brick works town,

KUPER: yep.

KEOGH: And so the War Memorial is made out of brick. And whenever you read the names, and this is true in every town across Australia, you read the names on those War Memorials, and you go, that's the name of a street, or that's the name of a park, or that's the name of a suburb. And that's because those families had been in those districts, for a long time, they were the families. And you realise, like, there's three people with that last name on that wall, like, that's like a whole family,

KUPER: Yep,

KEOGH: that was wiped out in that war, or a big chunk of it, families were a bit bigger than. When you start to just sort of reflect and think about one, loss of life, but the real tragedy that that visited back on what would have been a pretty small town, and this is true all across the country. You know, that's when you can really sort of come to like, this was a huge endeavor where people literally put their life on the line. But, you know, we put the names of the people who died on those memorials.

Over 103,000 people on the walls of the Australian War Memorial in Canberra, but they all had people standing next to them who were able to come back, but absolutely suffered the mental consequences of being survivors. Were also physically injured in other ways, might have suffered other mental trauma, and then all of the families that were touched by that, either by loss or by injury as well. And to think that people were willing to go do that, sometimes it looked like a great adventure, and I think sure it was a great adventure, but it was, boy, was that an adventure that I don’t think people really anticipated in the same way. And whether that was Anzac Cove, the Western Front, Kokoda, Afghanistan, Long Tan, Iraq, East Timor. We've got peacekeepers in Lebanon right now…

KUPER: yeah, I would not want to be them right now.

KEOGH: You know, those people make a huge sacrifice in so many different ways, and their families do as well.

KUPER: Yeah, yeah.

KEOGH: The least we can do is come out and pay them, you know, the homage and recognition and respect of a very grateful nation. I mentioned peacekeeping. We've been involved in in peacekeeping missions since the very first, every year through to today. You know, we talk about the role of Australia as a middle power, our contribution to peacekeeping around the world and continuing to have contributions to peacekeeping right now, whether it's in the Middle East, parts of Africa, other parts of the world, that makes a world of difference to the people on the ground there. And it's a contribution that we make, and it's a contribution that individuals put on our uniform and make and we should absolutely pay our respects to those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice, but all of those that have been impacted and have served for us. And that's what Anzac Day is about.

KUPER: I couldn't have said it better myself. Matt, one last question, same question I ask everybody, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be?

KEOGH: I feel like there's a lot of talking going on.

KUPER: I know, I know.

KEOGH: I don't know if there's any things that we're not talking about. I think it's not that we're not talking about it, but it's a point that I made before, and I think it's one that I really want to reinforce we are absolutely right to always be focused on and talking about, what are the things that we need to improve in our veteran support systems? We've got the new legislative regime that kicks in from the first of July this year, moving to a single scheme, enhanced scheme, making it simpler for people to access their entitlements. And that's a great change. They’re things we should be doing as a Government and collectively as a country, we need to focus on where's the gap, where's the thing that's not working, that needs to work, but the thing we don't talk about enough is how good our Defence people are, how good our veterans are. That this idea that, you know, all veterans are broken, that needs to be gotten rid of, and so I guess that's the thing we're not talking about enough is that whilst there's absolutely things that need to be changed in Defence and things that need to be improved in terms of veteran support, most people have a really good experience during and after and they continue to contribute, not just when they're in Defence, but after Defence. The last census told us veterans are more likely to volunteer than the general population, for example, that's the thing we need to continually reinforce and talk about.

KUPER: I just want to ask you one thing on that. Do you think that, and we were, we were talking about All Quiet on the Western Front, and this whole, this whole idea of moving away from veterans being broken, do you think that's part of the lasting psychic backlash of the ramifications and the horrors that the troops felt in the First World War, which was really the first industrialised conflict, and then their families experiencing what they experienced coming home?

KEOGH: I don't think it is actually.

KUPER: okay.

KEOGH: I think it's actually a reaction to Vietnam.

KUPER: Ah, okay.

KEOGH: So because there was such political turmoil about Vietnam, particularly towards the end and conscription and those two things, you obviously, yeah, really into it. Lots of people hid that they served when they came back. They didn't talk about, like, I mean, most people come back from War, they don't talk about it. We know that. But they really hid that, that they went, yep. And it was that same time as well, that, and Australia did a lot of the work on this, that we really developed the concept of PTSD, as opposed to

KUPER: shell shock,

KEOGH: shell shock, or otherwise, we talked about it in previous conflicts. And it really wasn't until the 80s, you know, they had the welcome home march. You had a different appreciation for okay, like people might have disagreed with the war, but we don't take that out on the people who were sent to go and fight it.

KUPER: yeah?

KEOGH: And that then meant that there was this whole new re-engagement with the concept of injury and particularly mental impacts. And for a lot of those Vietnam veterans, and some of them are family friends of mine, you know, those mental impacts didn't come on until the early 2000s Yeah, you know, once they got past their working life, or their kids had grown up, and they had a bit more time, and they start dwelling on things, and they think through stuff and so we've seen that come on, actually, in a much more recent period of consciousness, whilst we've also been fighting our longest ever engagement being Afghanistan. And so I think that's actually the thing that sort of set the national conscious into… and if you think that's the Baby Boomer generation, yeah, so whilst not as many of them went and fought as, you know, in terms of proportion of the population compared to Second World War or First World War, we had television shows about what were the impacts on Vietnam veterans. We had radio shows about what were the impacts on Vietnam veterans. You had people protesting about, why don't we get enough support from DVA? You had the Vietnam Veterans set up their own counseling service, which then Government took over and is now Open Arms and available to all veterans and families because they weren't getting that support out of Government. There was all those discussions. That's actually, I think, where the consciousness started. And again, the ones that had a, I think anyone had a fine time in Vietnam, but you know, the ones who came through their service in Vietnam and went on to have successful careers, in a sense, become back left, ones that were having problems that needed more assistance, where Government was not supporting them appropriately. That became the thing in the national psyche about it. Yeah, and so again, it sort of goes back to my point around rightly we focus on those things. But also, let's not think that that's the full story of what's going on here.

KUPER: Excellent. Well, Minister, thank you very much for your time. You've been very generous today. For people who want to stay up to date with the latest that you're doing, whether it's electorate focused or in your capacity as Minister, where can they find more information?

KEOGH: Well, you can just Google Matt Keogh and go to Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, you'll find me, and you'll see what we're doing. And we're trying to, you know, I'm trying to be as communicative to the veteran community, of course, my own electorate as well, about what we are doing to support because one of the things we often find is people don't know where to go, and so making sure people can see, yeah, we see you, and we see the need to improve things, and we're doing that work is incredibly important.

KUPER: Excellent. And for people who want to stay up to date with the latest in Defence, Defence industry and the National Security conversation, head over to defenceconnect.com.au, or you can find us on all your social media outlets, bar Tiktok. And one final message for Anzac Day for those who have served and continue to serve our nation, thank you very much for your service, until next time bye bye.

ENDS 

Open Arms – Veterans & Families Counselling provides 24/7 free confidential crisis support for current and ex-serving ADF personnel and their families on 1800 011 046 or the Open Arms website. Safe Zone Support provides anonymous counselling on 1800 142 072. Defence All-Hours Support Line provides support for ADF personnel on 1800 628 036 or the Defence Health Portal. Defence Member and Family Helpline provides support for Defence families on 1800 624 608.