Radio Interview - 6PR Perth Radio Mornings with Sean Cowan

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 
6PR PERTH RADIO 
MORNINGS WITH SEAN COWAN 
THURSDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 2024        

SUBJECTS: Final Report from the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide; Middle East Conflict; UN Vote; Disability Royal Commission.

HOST, SEAN COWAN: Well, this is the first time I've refereed this title fight. Pleased to have you in the studio, the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs and Defence Personnel, Matt Keogh.

MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL, MATT KEOGH: It’s great to be with you. It's great to have you refereeing the title fight, as you put it.

COWAN: Thank you. And on the phone is Andrew Hastie, the Opposition Defence Spokesperson. Good morning, Andrew.

SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE, ANDREW HASTIE: G'day, Sean. G'day, Matt. I've got some long range right crosses ready for you, Sean.

COWAN: Excellent. Looking forward to it. In some breaking economic news, Australia's unemployment rate has remained steady at 4.2%. Let's hope that this has a positive effect on interest rates in the long term. You can determine what positive means. It could mean anything to any personally – let’s say positive. And you probably heard me talking before the break about the extraordinary situation over in Lebanon where we've got pagers blowing up and then overnight we've got walkie talkies blowing up as well and causing death and mayhem. Matt, what's your take on that? Where's that going?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, I mean, clearly it's not going where anyone would like this to go. What we've been calling for for some time is de-escalation in the region. What we want to make sure is that the current conflicts don't turn into broader conflicts. And what we have seen over the last few days by the actions of Hezbollah, which are a listed terrorist organisation here and in many places around the world, does amount to a terrible escalation. And we obviously don't want to see that in any way continue. But can I also say it does reinforce the point why we as a Government have been saying to Australians in Lebanon, please come home.

COWAN: Now Andrew, Australia actually abstained from a vote overnight calling for Israel to withdraw from Gaza. What do you make of that? I know the Foreign Minister had wanted to vote for the motion, but negotiations to insert some amendments were unsuccessful.

HASTIE: Yeah, I think the Albanese Government should have shown courage and consistency in opposing this motion. The motion made no mention of October 7. And on the Coalition side, we've always stood up for Israel's right to self-defence, particularly after the October 7 Hamas attacks last year. We, of course, want to see no civilians hurt or killed. Unfortunately, that's what happens in war. But we can't have Hamas regrouping and relaunching attacks, particularly with what's happening on the northern border of Israel with Hezbollah as well. So, to reiterate Matt's point, the situation is very fragile. We on the Coalition uphold Israel's right to self-defence. And we thought this - we think this motion should have been voted down by the Australian Government.

COWAN: Now, a little closer to home, there has been a lot going on in Defence, by the way, and a little closer to home, we have had the Report of the Defence and Veteran Suicide Royal Commission finally handed down. It's made 122 recommendations in that Final Report. Matt, the Government hasn't really responded yet. When are you planning to officially respond as a Government to the recommendations?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, as you pointed out, there's 122 recommendations there and they're contained in a Report that runs to over 3,100 pages. It's over seven volumes and I can tell you it weighs about 12 kilos. So, we've had the Report for some nine days now. There's a lot for us to work through, which is really important. But as we've always said, when we received the Report on Monday, our intention has been to respond to the Report as quickly as possible. And I can confirm that we will respond to the Report by the end of the year.

COWAN: Okay. And what about the recommendation that’s there to establish a new dedicated body to help Defence personnel to transition to civilian life? Because that's something that probably doesn't need to wait till the end of the year. And let's face it, if something's not done, then we lose more soldiers.

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah. So, this is a recommendation for the creation of a independent oversight body that would be chaired by an independent person, and this was recommendation 122 of the Royal Commission. But it is something that the Royal Commission has been speaking about for some time. The details of that sort of recommendation, as with all of them, we need to work through normal Government processes and through Cabinet as well to make sure we get that right. But I can say that we, on the face of the recommendation, Government does agree to that. We've given that some consideration and so we agree to the need to set up that body as the Royal Commission has recommended. But as with all of those recommendations, we need to work through them, through the normal Government processes.

COWAN: And how expeditiously do you think you can do that? Because I know a body's not easy to just set up in the space of a few days, but as I said, there are lives on the line.

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah, so as I said, there's quite a bit of detail to work through there. The Royal Commission says that it wants this to be established independently through legislation. So, it would take a little bit of time to draft that legislation, consult on that properly to get it up and running. That's something that's not really called for by the Royal Commission until sometime next year. But on the face of the recommendation, while we've got to go through the normal processes, we do agree to the need to set up such a body and together with that recommendation and all the others, we'll provide a response by the end of this year.

COWAN: Now, Andrew, this is a subject that is near and dear to your heart. Is the Government moving quick enough on these recommendations? As you heard Matt say, it's had the recommendations for all of nine days. I understand in Government that's not a long time, but we have heard the debate for a lot longer than that. Because the Royal Commission's been running for a lot longer than that.

HASTIE: That's right. Back in April of 2021, the former Coalition Government announced the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide, sadly. And since 1997, we've had almost 1,700 Defence or veterans take their own life. It's a number that's staggeringly high and it's far too high, and we need to bring it right down. So, we've got the Report. The Government's had it for nine days, as you say, and our commitment on the other side of the aisle, as the Opposition, is to work with the Government as quickly as possible to bring as many of these recommendations into force, which is the main point here. This isn't a report for the sake of a report. It's actually about taking action and saving more lives and helping our veterans’ transition out of uniform into productive and meaningful lives in the civilian world. And that's really, really important. I've done the transition. I've got many friends who've done the transition. I think there are certain elements that will lead to a successful transition. We've got to make sure that that is the standard experience for our Defence personnel as they become veterans.

COWAN: Andrew, I know you can't put a dollar figure on it, but what sort of resource needs to be put behind such a body? Because it's an extraordinarily large task to help a whole lot of soldiers, because we have a fair Defence Force to transition back into what I'll call normal life after serving.

HASTIE: Yeah, I think it's after service care that really matters. I think of my own grandfather, who was very badly wounded in the Second World War. He had PTSD but partly the reason why he managed to live through to the ripe old age of 93 and live a, you know, a successful, productive life was because he had a lot of organisations in his life where he could hang out with veterans and share his wartime experiences. And I think one of the challenges for modern society is this sense of loneliness. We're becoming more and more dislocated through, from each other, through social media. People, despite being more connected online, are actually less connected in person. And so I think it's not just about Defence and veterans, it's holding up the mirror to all of Australia and asking, how can we do a better job of building community as a people? I think that's at the heart of the question. There are certainly things that we can do to help our Defence personnel as they leave the Defence Force. And the challenge, Sean, if I can just go on for slightly longer, the challenge is a lot of them are recruited out of places like Perth or Sydney or Melbourne and then sent to places like Townsville and Darwin and Adelaide. And they discharge from those locations and the world's moved on in Sydney, Perth or Melbourne. And so for a lot of girls and guys, the challenge is, where do I set up my life? How do I build new friendships outside Defence? What do I do now that I've left this tribe or this family that I've been part of? And that's the challenge I think we're facing.

COWAN: Thanks Andrew. I've got a couple of texts come in, but I'm going to get to those after the break, so we'll be back in a minute. 133 882.

[ad break]

COWAN: Lots of texts coming through, especially on the issue of Defence suicide. Rob says “Andrew is spot on, human beings are wired for connection and you cannot get that connection over a phone or on social media” and Rob is also urging Labor to make sure that they appoint someone who understands how the military works to oversee this new body. As I indicated during the first part of this segment, there is actually a lot going on in Defence. In fact, one of the big talking points this week, I think, especially in media and Defence circles, was the story on Seven about Heston Russell, the former, I think he's still former, I may be wrong. Maybe he’s current SAS. He'd have to be former, I wouldn't be able to name him - soldier who had a running battle with the ABC over some allegations that were made against him. Andrew, I might cross to you because I know you've been far more intimately involved in this story, but what have you made of the ABC's treatment of Heston Russell?

HASTIE: Well, I know Heston very well. I did four years of training with Heston at the Defence Academy in Duntroon and we overlapped a little bit in Afghanistan ourselves. I think what the ABC did was shameful. They are our national broadcaster. They're charged with reporting the facts and the truth. And to hear that they have, and to see that they've doctored footage to imply that something happened which didn't, and it's something as grave as a war crime, I think is really shameful and I hope people are held to account for it because you just can't do that. The Australian people pay their taxpayer dollars, it funds the ABC and they expect impartial, fact based reporting. In this case, it was an egregious example of essentially a lie. And so I think people need to be held accountable.

COWAN: Andrew, there is a nexus here with the previous topic we were discussing, which is veteran suicide, isn't there? Because Heston seemed, and rightfully so, quite upset on that interview and talked about some fairly low moments. And I imagine that that had a real effect on him and is something that is outside the control of either the Defence Force or Government.

HASTIE: That's right. A lot of people have been touched by war. Heston has, I have, and we know colleagues who have been. And I think he was rightly aggrieved by the way this was reported. And I'm glad it's come to light because we expect more from our national broadcaster. It's as simple as that. It's very hard to go into bat for these people when they're obviously very loose with the truth. And so I'm glad he was successful in his court case and I'm glad he's brought this other issue to light, because the only way that the national broadcaster will improve its game if it's had some transparency, and that's what this whole incident has brought.

COWAN: Matt, as a journalist, I'll certainly defend the ABC's right to look at any public institution and to put it under the microscope, as I'm sure you would do. You are in a difficult position in Government, in that the Government pays for the ABC, but I imagine that the Government wants the ABC to do things right, to be above board. What can you do about this? Or is this one where you just have to let the ABC's own processes take place?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, certainly the ABC has very strong obligations on it under the ABC Charter, but it is also editorially independent, which people would expect. Government shouldn't be able to tell the ABC how to conduct its reporting. But I think the decision of Justice Lee from last year in relation to this case speaks very clearly for itself. And many people, and Andrew's just outlined it, have drawn conclusions from that. And I think it's then for the ABC to justify how it undertook that reporting and to explain itself.

COWAN: Do you expect them to have to do that in a public forum, something like in a Parliamentary Inquiry, or is this just going to be on the ABC to put out statements?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, I would be in no way surprised if the ABC wasn't asked questions about this through an Estimates process or anything else. It is important that it maintains its editorial independence from Government. I think that’s very important. And so the capacity of Government to lean in on issues like this is minimal and that's about respecting that independence. But the ABC also needs to comply with its Charter.

HASTIE: And Sean, if I can add, I think the Australian people have an all-time low level of trust in many of our institutions. So, you know, I believe in our institutions, I believe in the Parliament. I believe that we should have a national broadcaster which gives news to people out in the regions where free to air commercial networks won't go. The ABC is important, but when they do this sort of stuff, it actually diminishes trust, the trust that they should have from the Australian people. And so that's why it's great that it's been brought to light, because they need to demonstrate that they are accountable and that they can do a much better job in line with their Charter, as Matt mentioned.

COWAN: Matt, I've just got a text from Suresh Rajan. I'm sure you're well aware of who Suresh is, and he's warning that the Disability Royal Commission came up with 222 recommendations and the Government adopted just 13 of those. Is there anything to say that the Government won't adopt at least a majority of the recommendations made in the Royal Commission report?

MINISTER KEOGH: Just on the Disability Royal Commission. First, I think it's really important to understand that a lot of the recommendations in that Royal Commission were recommendations made directly to the states. So, for example, there was a recommendation that was that the WA Government go and employ some people to do something, the Commonwealth could never respond to recommendations like that, so it responded to the recommendations that were directed to it. And a similar thing applies here in that there is about 9-10 recommendations that are for the Commonwealth and the states and territories. So, we do need to work with them on those. But beyond that, I don't really want to get into “oh, we'll do these ones, we won't do these ones”. The recommendation about a body, an independent overview body to follow, is something that the Royal Commission had flagged well in advance. And so we are in a position to say that while we've got to go through the normal Cabinet and Government processes, that we do agree to that recommendation on its face. But in terms of the rest of them, we do need to work through all of them. And that's something I've been spending a lot of time over the last nine days working through the detail of to make sure that we're in the best position to support these recommendations because Defence and veteran suicide is such an important issue.

COWAN: Yeah, Matt, thanks very much for that. I appreciate you coming into the studio this morning, given that Andrew's on the phone I didn't actually have to get in between the two of you. I suspect Andrew might have had me covered anyway.

HASTIE: No, no, no, Matt's a scrapper from way back.

COWAN: Thanks gents. Appreciate that.

END

Open Arms – Veterans & Families Counselling provides 24/7 free confidential crisis support for current and ex-serving ADF personnel and their families on 1800 011 046 or the Open Arms website. Safe Zone Support provides anonymous counselling on 1800 142 072. Defence All-Hours Support Line provides support for ADF personnel on 1800 628 036 or the Defence Health Portal. Defence Member and Family Helpline provides support for Defence families on 1800 624 608