Radio interview - 6PR Perth Radio Mornings with Gary Adshead - Thursday, 21 March 2024

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
6PR PERTH RADIO
MORNINGS WITH GARY ADSHEAD

HOST, GARY ADSHEAD: Welcome gentlemen.

MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL, MATT KEOGH: Great to be with you Gary.

SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE, ANDREW HASTIE: G’day Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: I’m down at the Claremont Showgrounds for the Caravan and Camping Show. Are either of you two campers?

MINISTER KEOGH: My parents are Gary. So I hope they’re not spending too much time down there because I know they’ll be acquiring all sorts of paraphernalia for their caravan if they are.

GARY ADSHEAD: Spending your inheritance. Spending your inheritance.

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, they’re well entitled to do that.

GARY ADSHEAD: What about Andrew Hastie? You must be the rugged outdoors type.

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, I’ve spent so much time sleeping under the stars in cold and wet environments, I quite like my bed these days. But my children are pushing for camping. So I hired a caravan a few years ago. Went down to Jarrahdene National Park in Margaret River. Beautiful part of the world. And I recommend it to all. So good on you for being at the showground today.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. You’re all up for it if necessary. Okay. Now, I know that we’re probably in between votes and things that are going on there in Parliament House in Canberra. Hey, can I just play you a bit of audio, because this sort of fits into both of your bailiwicks in terms of your portfolios et cetera. This was Paul Papalia a couple of days ago. Now, this audio is courtesy of Channel 7, I should point out. He was making a speech. He said that it is disappointing that we don’t have enough ADF personnel in WA given the sort of infrastructure and importance of the state. But not only that, you’ll hear the voice of the Commander of the 13th Brigade, Brigadier Amanda Williamson, backing that up. Have a listen.

[Excerpt]

PAUL PAPALIA: It is time the ADF, apart from the Navy, discovered the most strategically important part of the nation, and that is the north-west. Other than the Pilbara Regiment, which is a wonderful reserve unit, fantastic people, but under-armed, under-resourced.

AMANDA WILLIAMSON: We have a coastline which is exceeds 20,000 kilometers, and I have just under 1,500 people to protect that area.

[End excerpt]

GARY ADSHEAD: Can I get your both reactions? Perhaps with you, Matt, to start with, if I could?

MINISTER KEOGH: Sure. So we undertook the Defence Strategic Review at the beginning of our term of Government and have been getting about implementing the outcomes of that. And a critical part of the Defence Strategic Review is about not only the type of capabilities that we have in our Defence Force but also where they’re located and where forces are located. And what is really clear about what we are doing as part of that – obviously in terms of the next stage of our submarine capability that will be based in Western Australia. That’s very important. We’re also undertaking a basically long overdue process of upgrading our northern bases, so that’s Curtin Air Base, Learmonth Air Base, but also out to Christmas Island, Cocos and Keeling, making sure that we are reinforcing our capability to operate from the north of our state when that is required. And, of course, as Andrew is very well aware, we have our most elite service in the SAS based in Western Australia, and they have a capability of deploying rapidly around Western Australia and in other places as well as is needed.

But a key focus of the Defence Strategic Review is actually about protecting Australia from further away than Australia – making sure that we’re making the investments in technology and capability when it comes to guided missile systems, weapons that have long range, being able to keep any potential adversary at risk and at bay much further away from Australia than anywhere near our shores. And it should also be pointed out that we also operate a number of aerial surveillance processes across not just the north-west of Western Australia but our ocean approaches through the northern Indian Ocean and into the South China Sea as well.

So I understand Minister Papalia’s great desire to have more personnel in Western Australia, and there’s great local economic benefit that may come from doing that. But we’ve had the independent review assess where we need to have forces located and capability located, and we are improving that across the north of Western Australia and across the north of Australia.

And in addition to 13th Brigade, which was referenced there we also have the Pilbara Regiment, which is based throughout the north of Western Australia and across the north of Australia, including the Kimberley region we have NORFORCE as well. So it’s important to recognise the full capability that is at play across Western Australia but also the strategic way in which we exercise that capability.

GARY ADSHEAD: Okay, the fact that the commander was sort of making the point that less than, you know, 1,500 people, what do you say to that, Andrew?

ANDREW HASTIE: [...] And so he’s right to highlight that WA is a massive state. It’s resource rich. There are a lot of critical earths and – critical minerals, rather, and rare earths that need protecting, and we have a fairly small Defence presence here.

And I don’t think it’s controversial at all for the 13 Brigade Commander, Brigadier Williamson, to make her comments. She’s stating the obvious. And I think if [...]

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. Okay.

MINISTER KEOGH: It should be pointed out, Gary, that [...] It’s the Defence Strategic Review that we’ve done that is about enhancing those capabilities in Western Australia, and that’s what we’re getting about doing.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. Hold those thoughts, folks. We’ll come back to you in a second. We’ll just take a break and we’ll be back with Andrew Hastie and Matt Keogh after this.

[Ad break]

GARY ADSHEAD: Yes, and Rob is on the line. He’s got a bit of a point to make. G’day, Rob.

SPEAKER: G’day, gentlemen. This is for the Labor Minister. I’m curious to know, you’ve been speaking about building up the defences in the north-west, protecting the resources up there. But how come illegal immigrants can come in undetected? This doesn’t make sense, and it doesn’t match what you’re trying to say.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright, Matt?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, the – what you’re talking about there Rob, is the responsibility of Border Force, and there’s a whole range of Operation Sovereign Borders ships and surveillance that are involved in that process, which is a different thing to what our Defence Force is engaged in primarily in terms of our national interests and security from a Defence point of view in terms of a potential adversary or people looking to attack critical infrastructure and assets in Australia. So they’re – it is important that we understand those are distinctions. And certainly the fact that that has been able to occur is something of great concern, and that’s why we’ve made sure that we’re applying the resources that Border Force need in its operations in terms of ships at its disposal as well as the other aerial surveillance that is in play. But it’s actually – that’s where we’re also engaging with those personnel that are operating through NORFORCE and local communities and Pilbara Regiment to apply additional surveillance.

ANDREW HASTIE: I think, Matt, his point, though, was that under the Labor Government our border was breached some weeks ago. And so the question is to you, the Government: why?

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah, it’s a great question. And it happened under the last Government as well. And there was a great – and that is something that is something that we don’t want to be seeing as a regular occurrence.

ANDREW HASTIE: Sorry to take your mic from you, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: Oh, its good fun, I’m just sitting back thinking of caravans.

MINISTER KEOGH: That’s why we’re ramping up the engagement of other services in that.

ANDREW HASTIE: [...]

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, you’re conflating two very different issues –

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, no, no. But it goes to the same thing [...]

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, clearly not, because those people who came through the border were taken immediately offshore, as per the Sovereign Borders policy that, you know, you operated and we operate in exactly the same way. So there was no weakness at all in any of that. And in terms of the issue that – where the High Court has required things to occur with people that were under detention. [...] So –

ANDREW HASTIE: My point is –

MINISTER KEOGH: [...]

ANDREW HASTIE: [...]

GARY ADSHEAD: All right –

ANDREW HASTIE: And he deserves an answer.

GARY ADSHEAD: Andrew, can I ask you: would you support a nuclear reactor being put into Collie’s backyard or somewhere else in the state as part of the policy that your Coalition are about to unveil?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, I support a nuclear reactor going into HMAS Stirling, where we’re going to have several. So, you know, I’m yet to hear from the residents of Rockingham about their concerns about nuclear reactors being alongside the naval base. And that’s not to be cheeky with the question, Gary, but, you know, we’re a long way from deciding where these reactors might be put, the small modular reactors. We’re having a conversation about how we might get there. And at the moment all we have is bloody mindedness and stubbornness from this Government.

We’re the only G20 nation with a blanket ban on zero emissions nuclear technology. And more than 20 countries except Australia signed a pledge last year COP28 in Dubai calling for a tripling of zero emissions nuclear energy. So, you know, Anthony Albanese and the Labor Party are still fighting the wars of the 1970s-80s nuclear disarmament movement. We’ve moved on from there and if people want to get zero emissions, both affordable and reliable, then we should be having a conversation about nuclear power.

Now, in the short term –

GARY ADSHEAD: Are they small? Are they small modular reactors, or are they large reactors as well? Because I thought the cat was out of the bag –

ANDREW HASTIE: We’re talking about small modular reactors. But in the meantime –

MINISTER KEOGH: Well that’s not true, that’s not what your party room’s been talking about –

ANDREW HASTIE: – we need to get more gas into the system rather than massive Chinese-made renewables from Mandurah down to Dunsborough, which is what this Government is proposing, which is going to be costly, it’s going to be damaging to the environment, it’s going to be ugly. You’re not going to see these things built at Cottesloe, where I imagine quite a few investors live. It’s always on regional Australians that they build these projects.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well same with – what about nuclear reactors though?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, Andrew talks about cheaper. The problem with nuclear is it’s just completely uneconomic. He talks about small modular reactors, which is something that literally doesn’t exist in the world and actually his party’s position is not now about –

ANDREW HASTIE: Which is why we need more gas in the system in the short term.

MINISTER KEOGH: Sure, we’re all about that. No doubt.

ANDREW HASTIE: Renewables are not cheap at all.

MINISTER KEOGH: [...]

ANDREW HASTIE: Massive sunk costs for renewables. Transmission costs.

GARY ADSHEAD: [...]

ANDREW HASTIE: Massive sunk costs with renewables.

MINISTER KEOGH: And yet nothing compared to the sunk cost of nuclear.

ANDREW HASTIE: No, no, levied on families and small businesses through the hikes in their power bills, which is exactly [...]  It’s as simple as that.

MINISTER KEOGH: To take your approach, the sunk cost in nuclear is even bigger than what you were just talking about. So your policy would be to make electricity even more expensive than it already is. So your position makes no sense.

ANDREW HASTIE: Are you committing to more gas in the system? Are you committing to more gas in the system?

MINISTER KEOGH: Of course we’re putting more gas in the system.

ANDREW HASTIE: Are you?

MINISTER KEOGH: Yes.

ANDREW HASTIE: Are you committed to it?

MINISTER KEOGH: We are doing that.

ANDREW HASTIE: Are you open to coal?

MINISTER KEOGH: Coal is coming out because coal-fired power station operators are closing them.

ANDREW HASTIE: Why are you exporting it to the rest of the world to burn?

MINISTER KEOGH: Because they need it.

ANDREW HASTIE: Okay. So how does that square with your, you know, net zero emissions targets of – what is it – 2030, 82 per cent of renewables?

MINISTER KEOGH: Because – two things, there’s a –

ANDREW HASTIE: CSIRO – 1 per cent of the world’s emissions are produced by Australia, so we’re happy to de-industrialise here, but you’re selling coal to the rest of the world.

MINISTER KEOGH: Andrew, you’re conflating things.

ANDREW HASTIE: No, no.

MINISTER KEOGH: We’re are not de-industrialising; we are re-industrialising.

ANDREW HASTIE: The common man and woman out there can work this out themselves.

MINISTER KEOGH: Because you oversimplify things, conflate things which are actually complex and important for people and demonstrate --

ANDREW HASTIE: Oh, spare me the lecture.

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, I am going to lecture about this, Andrew, because if you don’t get this right –

ANDREW HASTIE: [...]

MINISTER KEOGH: If you don’t get on board with the program and keep promoting this crazy idea of large nuclear reactors, which are even more expensive than every other alternative, then where does that leave the country where we need to move to cheaper and cleaner energy to support an industrial base? That’s actually what we’re trying to do. That’s why gas is important both in Australia and to export, and we’re all about that. And it helps Australia to decarbonise and it helps –

ANDREW HASTIE: Hold on a sec, carbon leakage, so we send coal to countries which have less regulation. They can burn it. They can increase their emissions and we’re okay with that? You’re okay with that?

MINISTER KEOGH: That’s why we are working with –

ANDREW HASTIE: Out of sight, out of mind?

MINISTER KEOGH: And that’s why gas is so important – because it helps other countries transition off coal on to gas as they work to renewables as well.

GARY ADSHEAD: Andrew, Andrew, Andrew. I take it that as part of this policy – which is a massive policy for the Coalition to unveil prior to the 2025 election – I take it that you know that there would be private investors ready to help with this rollout of nuclear reactors?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, I’m sure that – well, investors move with the signals from Government. [...]

MINISTER KEOGH: And they’d get worse under that program because you would have the situation where – let’s say we remove the ban and you’ve got investors and they manage to somehow make it economic, which no-one is saying it is, they would still spend decades to build that reactor, so you’d have a gap where there’s blackouts under your policy, because there’s not enough energy. And it would be more expensive to get that electricity because it’s so much more expensive to build a nuclear reactor than to build renewables and to do the network augmentation. So what you are proposing is more expensive electricity with a whole period with not enough electricity in the middle.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, there are lots of question marks, but I’m going to bind that discussion up by saying this – well, hang on, I just want to ask, Matt Keogh, why is the Prime Minister again prepared to backflip on a promise he’s made in terms of legislation he would take to the Parliament? Why is he now saying only with bipartisan support we go ahead with the religious discrimination laws?

MINISTER KEOGH: There’s no backflip here. We’ve always been clear that we want to progress ensuring religious freedom in this country and that we have a proper framework for – against discrimination in this country. The observation that the Prime Minister was making is that that won’t happen unless there’s bipartisan support because of the nature of the Parliament and the nature of the Senate. So that’s just an observation of fact about the numbers in the Parliament. And, frankly, for this to be a constructive debate rather than a destructive debate, it will work better if there is a move towards consensus across party lines. That’s what Australians want. They want to see – and I’m sure people enjoy Andrew and I arguing with each other, but I think they also like to see it when we can find method of agreement with each other and that where parties of government and opposition can find that. And this is one of those areas where we want to find consensus, where we can work together to get bipartisan support instead of risking this being a point of further division, which it shouldn’t have to be. And that was the point that the Prime Minister was making.

GARY ADSHEAD: So do you accept, Matt, the idea that a school could employ like-minded people in their school environment by making a conscious decision that they are the people they want, as opposed to people that might not support the same faith-based beliefs? Do you accept that?

MINISTER KEOGH: Not only do I accept it, but I’m a big supporter of it.

GARY ADSHEAD: Okay. All right. So, therefore, you’re not that far away are you, you two?

MINISTER KEOGH: Andrew and I probably aren’t that far away.

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, I believe in the freedom of association. I believe that Catholics should be able to hire Catholics and not be forced to hire Protestants and vice versa. It applies in all areas of our lives. You know, Gary, you know, you can hire your staff based on, you know, a range of characteristics that you’re looking for when you produce your show. You know –

GARY ADSHEAD: Manchester United supporters I like. Yep.

ANDREW HASTIE: That’s right. So my point is – anyway, the Prime Minister can’t come out and say, “Oh, this is only going to happen if the Coalition comes on board,” when we haven’t even received the legislation. I know Michaelia Cash, the Shadow Attorney-General, received it yesterday, but I haven’t had a chance to look at it. So I can’t really give you an opinion on what they’re offering. I do know the Australian Law Reform Commission’s report is dropping today.

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah.

ANDREW HASTIE: And from all reports it sounds quite hostile to people of faith.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right.

ANDREW HASTIE: So we’ll be watching very closely to see how much of a lead the Albanese Government takes from Law Reform Commission report.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right.

MINISTER KEOGH: And it is important to recognise that it is a report; it is not Government policy. And just because it’s in the report doesn’t mean that that’s what we’re proposing to do.

GARY ADSHEAD: Okay. All right. I’m going to finish it there just to tell you, though, that I’ve picked out a van, and I think the three of us will do a road trip just in the lead-up to the next Federal Election. And we’ll sort of, you know, come together as one. It will be fantastic.

ANDREW HASTIE: That would be great, Gary.

MINISTER KEOGH: Look forward to it, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: You guys can pick the location. Thanks very much for joining us in your busy schedule. I really appreciate it.

MINISTER KEOGH: Thanks a lot, Gary. Great to be with you.

ANDREW HASTIE: Thanks, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: Good on you. Matt Keogh, Andrew Hastie there.

END

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