Radio interview - 6PR Perth Radio Mornings with Gary Adshead

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
6PR Perth
Mornings with Gary Adshead
Thursday, 14 December 2023

Subjects: Red Sea, UN Vote, Australia Day

HOST, GARY ADSHEAD: And they join me live in the studio. Good morning, gentlemen.

MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL, MATT KEOGH: Good morning, Gary. Good morning, Andrew. And I've bought you guys a box of Chrissie chocolates as well.

GARY ADSHEAD: Yes! Hang on, how do we -

MINISTER KEOGH: Tell me -

GARY ADSHEAD: I was going to say, go on.

MINISTER KEOGH: You have to share that with them out in the producing box as well

SHADOW DEFENCE MINISTER, ANDREW HASTIE: This guy's a smooth operator. I'll cover you off on Easter, okay.

MINISTER KEOGH: Hang on, mate. Hang on, Andrew, I mean, you know, the Minister's just wandered in here with a box of chocolates and then you've walked in here with sweet, you know -

ANDREW HASTIE: Nothing but love for you, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: Thank you.

ANDREW HASTIE: You're looking great in a T-shirt today, by the way.

GARY ADSHEAD: It's one of my favourite T-shirts, this one. Now look, just as you guys were walking into the studio, just some breaking news that we'll get out there, is that because he has been integral to the WA health system for many, many, many years, his name's David Russell-Weisz. He has announced that he will be resigning from his position of nine years in March next year. He will be stepping down as the State's top health bureaucrat. That story just gone up online by Michael Genovese and Hamish Hastie. So there you go, he's a fairly significant figure, of course, through COVID and everything like that. You know, he's one of those interesting characters and I'm not asking you to comment on it, but he's been through some big issues but always survived at the end of it and I'm sure that he's looking forward to spending more time at his holiday home, which I know where it is, but I won't say.

MINISTER KEOGH: Probably looking forward to a well-deserved break after all of those issues he's been dealing with.

GARY ADSHEAD: Indeed.

ANDREW HASTIE: And I'm looking forward to the next appointment getting on with delivering the Peel Health Campus upgrades which are long overdue.

MINISTER KEOGH: There it is.

GARY ADSHEAD: Exactly. Exactly. Alright, now, I do want to ask you, you know, given your portfolio, Matt, and of course, your Shadow Defence portfolio as well, Andrew, the US, according to a report by Cameron Stewart on the front page of The Australian today, have requested Australia send a warship to the Red Sea. Where is that at in your mind as a Government right now, Matt?

MINISTER KEOGH: So the Red Sea is in the Middle East.

GARY ADSHEAD: That's not important.

MINISTER KEOGH: So the important thing here about the Red Sea, Andrew will understand this as well, it's a critical shipping lane. We are a trading nation making sure that the laws of the sea are complied with, that we have clear lines of communication and trade is really important to Australia, just as it is for pretty much the entire world through that area. And that's why we are already committed to Operation Manitou operating in that area as part of the combined military force. We have Australian personnel that are already involved in that operation.

GARY ADSHEAD: Navy or -

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah, Navy personnel that are involved in that operation working with the headquarters there as part of Operation Manitou. So we're already committed and engaged in that operation.

GARY ADSHEAD: A warship?

MINISTER KEOGH: That's what we've seen some reports of the request on and obviously we always engage with our partners. I think there's been a lot of countries that have been requested to look at how we can continue to participate.

GARY ADSHEAD: I don't know whether it's the US saying that they want a show of greater force and sort of allies involved because of the threat that they've been facing from, you know, incidents involving Iran and then you've seen the issues of the Houthi militias that have been jumping onto ships and taking them over and so on. What do you think? Should we have a warship there, Andrew Hastie?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, that's a decision for Government and it's for Government to explain. In principle, though, I think we should do everything we can to assist with keeping those shipping lanes open. Matt made it very clear, we are a trading nation. But moreover, what we've seen is Iran-backed militias attacking shipping in that area, we know that Iran was behind the Hamas attacks on Israel on the 7th of October, and so insofar as doing such a thing would contribute to peace and stability in the Middle East, it would be a good thing, however, I'm not an informed decision-maker, I'm not part of Government and this is on the Minister for Defence, or the Deputy Prime Minister, Richard Marles, to make a decision in concert with the National Security Committee of Cabinet.

GARY ADSHEAD: It's a big decision because, of course, that then puts our troops in the front line of something that may occur, and we saw with Toowoomba only coming back yesterday and what they had to go through in terms of their sort of issue with a Chinese ship and the sonar, etc. So it can raise issues, can't it?

MINISTER KEOGH: Certainly it raises issue and there's always risk involved in any military engagement that Australia participates in, but as Andrew said, and as I mentioned before, Australia as a trading nation and as a nation that is committed to the laws of the sea to people following the international rules.

You know, this is a pretty important endeavour, making sure that that shipping lanes, like a lot of the shipping lanes that we're engaged in protecting and making sure there's freedom of navigation through them, is important and that's why we have - we are already engaged in Operation Manitou and we've seen the requests and that will be dealt with.

ANDREW HASTIE: And as a general point, we do our bit. Australia has always done our bit throughout history to contribute to stability and peace, not just here in our region but abroad as well.

And, it comes down to naval capacity. The Minister will know this. I'm not completely across our deployment, our maintenance, our operational schedules for our ships, that will be a decision for Defence to be made. But in principle, any support we can give we would support and back.

GARY ADSHEAD: 133 882, if there's anything you would like to ask Matt Keogh or Andrew Hastie, feel free to give us a bell. I do want to move on to the issue around - well, I'll ask you this straight out, Matt. There's a lot of commentary today that says that in deciding to support a ceasefire in the Middle East that Australia has gone against its allies because Britain abstained from that UN Security Council resolution, abstained and the US voted against it. Australia has jumped in with Canada and New Zealand to form a resolution of its own, if you like, supporting a ceasefire. Are you playing into the hands of Hamas there and have you gone outside the kind of AUKUS partnership?

MINISTER KEOGH: No, we've been very clear, and we voted together with two of the other Five Eyes nation members and the critical thing here was making sure that we were making sure that this was a balanced resolution and it's different to the resolution that we did not support previously, which is making - which was making the point that whilst a ceasefire is desirable from a humanitarian point of view, we also need to see action from Hamas and when it comes to the release of the hostages that they've taken during the terrorist attack on the 7th of October.

And that's why in supporting the resolution, it's a different resolution, it makes this point about this needs to come with the release of hostages, it's not just a one-sided thing, and it's why Australia, New Zealand, and Canada made a statement at the time of supporting the resolution about making clear that this all kicked off because of that terrorism attack on 7 October by Hamas and condemning them in the strongest possible terms for that.

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah, but can you have a ceasefire with a terrorist organisation? I've never heard of anything so stupid. How do you have a ceasefire with a bunch of murdering thugs that still hold people hostage, are raping women -

MINISTER KEOGH: Well that's exactly, that’s exactly -

GARY ADSHEAD: So why talk about a ceasefire rather than say until they release those people -

MINISTER KEOGH: It's what the resolution says, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, no, hang on, I don't know that it actually does say that.

MINISTER KEOGH: That's exactly what it says, which is -

GARY ADSHEAD: So you support calls for a ceasefire once the hostages have released?

MINISTER KEOGH: On the basis that there has to be the release of hostages. This is not a one-sided thing. You can't just have a one-sided ceasefire. Ceasefire has to be an agreement.

GARY ADSHEAD: What do you say, Andrew?

ANDREW HASTIE: I don't think you can negotiate with terrorists. I don't think a ceasefire is workable until Hamas hands back the hostages, they surrender, and Hamas leadership is removed. It's as simple as that.

GARY ADSHEAD: So the first two things are never going to happen.

ANDREW HASTIE: And then -

GARY ADSHEAD: At this point in time they’re not going to happen, right? They're not going to hand back all those hostages because that's basically their biggest bargaining chip at the moment.

ANDREW HASTIE: Correct.

GARY ADSHEAD: In terms of trying to put pressure on Israel.

ANDREW HASTIE: And the charter of Hamas is opposed to the existence of the Jewish people and Israel. So you can't negotiate with these people, which is why yesterday I said, you know, to have a ceasefire is to leave Hamas in power. So if you're locked in combat, as Israel is, you don't pause to give your enemy a rest. You finish the job. And until Hamas has been -

GARY ADSHEAD: At the expense of how many civilians, Palestinians in Gaza?

ANDREW HASTIE: Everyone grieves the loss of innocent life, and that loss of innocent life is on Hamas. They're the ones who murdered 13 to 14 hundred Israelis on the 7th of October. I saw the 43-minute video of what they did. These people are pure evil. Pure evil walked the day - that day and, you know, Israel doesn't have a choice. I'm sorry.

GARY ADSHEAD: Every action gets a reaction. Like if it happened here there would be a reaction. Has the reaction been over the top by Israel? Do you think, Matt Keogh, that they've gone too far?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, we've always said that Israel is absolutely within its rights to respond -

GARY ADSHEAD: What does that mean?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, it was attacked.

GARY ADSHEAD: Of course it has a right to respond. There's a no-brainer there. It's how far can they go to wipe out Hamas? That's what you guys need to figure out.

ANDREW HASTIE: Gary, let me put it will this way. If this happened to Australians, if 1,400 Australians were murdered on October 7th, right -

GARY ADSHEAD: We'd be baying for blood.

ANDREW HASTIE: And we had 250, 300 hostages held by a terrorist organisation, I tell you what, my people in Mandurah, they would be demanding that we finish the job, right? There's complexities in the Middle East, no doubt, no doubt.

GARY ADSHEAD: Where do you start?

ANDREW HASTIE: Absolutely. Where do we start? But in the end, it's a very clear cause that Israel has, and they have lost a number of people, more than 1,000, on that day and then there's little children taken as hostages. I'm sorry, I just, you know, I can't stand these Hamas apologists, I won't.

GARY ADSHEAD: Is Matt Keogh, is his Government a Hamas apologist?

ANDREW HASTIE: His Government is confused. Anthony Albanese is being weak and he's trying to pander to different segments of the population. Being a Prime Minister is hard work. It means you disappoint a lot of people because you make tough decisions and what he's doing is he's making weak decisions which is why it looks chaotic, not just here but also on the international stage.

When we're voting - we can't even vote with Papua New Guinea on this question, you know. The Germans abstained, the UK abstained, Italy abstained, they had the decency to abstain. We voted with a bunch of people who weren't even willing to condemn Hamas in the resolution.

GARY ADSHEAD: What do you say? I'll give you the right of reply on that one.

MINISTER KEOGH: We have always condemned Hamas; we have always defended Israel's right to respond appropriately and that they -

GARY ADSHEAD: But hang on -

MINISTER KEOGH: There's rules of international - -

GARY ADSHEAD: What does it mean, mate? Appropriately?

MINISTER KEOGH: - there are rules of international law, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: When you're dealing with terrorists that are buried under tunnels with people as hostages, as shields, in hospitals. I mean these are not normal rules of engagement.

MINISTER KEOGH: And we're not stooping to their level.

GARY ADSHEAD: In terms of what? Finding them, killing them and whatever that takes?

MINISTER KEOGH: Absolutely that's what has to happen, but it has to be - but also, international law needs to be followed as well.

GARY ADSHEAD: Would you like to be Benjamin Netanyahu right now trying to sort that out?

MINISTER KEOGH: Of course I wouldn't like to be in his position.

GARY ADSHEAD: Does it help his position to have Australia say you need a ceasefire with a terrorist organisation.

MINISTER KEOGH: It's not about him taking unilateral action. It's about agreement, it's about trying to force the release of these terrorists, Gary, sorry, the release of the hostages. That's also a very important part of what this - this is not about unilateral action on behalf of Israel. This is about trying to move forward -

GARY ADSHEAD: So we're telling Israel how they deal with this given what they have gone through over many, many years as documented in history. We know where the Israeli people have been and now we're telling them how they should go about dealing with these murdering bastards, seriously?

MINISTER KEOGH: And we absolutely, we've always said, since this attack -

GARY ADSHEAD: I mean I've got Usman Khawaja suggesting how it should be done with his, you know, messages on his bloody shoes before a cricket match for god's sake. I mean it's just ridiculous. Ridiculous. You imagine trying to deal with Hamas leadership who are hiding out in Qatar in penthouses and so on.

ANDREW HASTIE: It's also a listed terrorist organisation here under Commonwealth law.

MINISTER KEOGH: That's right.

GARY ADSHEAD: Let's have a ceasefire with them. Let's have a ceasefire with a listed terrorist organisation.

MINISTER KEOGH: I think you guys are taking a very one-sided approach -

GARY ADSHEAD: I'm taking an approach which says I don't know how you deal with this in the way that you guys -

MINISTER KEOGH: - which is very complex and we're trying to make sure that we find - that there is a movement towards a solution that obviously requires the release of those hostages and that's the key point that's being made here.

GARY ADSHEAD: To be clear, there will be no - and you don't accept that there should be a ceasefire unless the hostages are released first?

MINISTER KEOGH: That's the point that was being made in the resolution.

GARY ADSHEAD: Thirteen minutes to 10. We'll be back with more after this. 133 882 is the number.

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GARY ADSHEAD: It is ten to 10. Now where do we go? I will, I will, I shouldn't, but I will because I know the cricket's about to start, the Test match between Australia and Pakistan. Usman Khawaja's messaging on the side of his shoe, certainly sparks further debate around this issue, but Usman Khawaja, I don't know, should he just be playing cricket, Andrew Hastie?

ANDREW HASTIE: This is a judgment call and I think he's absolutely entitled to his political views, but I think when you put the baggy green on, you subordinate your personal views to that of the country and the team that you're representing and so I think it's in good taste that he leaves that off the cricket pitch. I think if he wants to join the political fray, then he can do a David Pocock and run for parliament. But I think if you're wearing the baggy green, you're standing with 100 years of tradition and it's important that you uphold and respect that the baggy green is non-political, it's about country and it's about representing the people who have put you there.

GARY ADSHEAD: The message is obviously a fairly generic one in terms of everyone has rights to freedom and, you know, every human life is the same value, is equal. What do you say, Matt? It's not really - it's stoked another -

MINISTER KEOGH: I don't think the position, you know, all lives are equal is controversial in any way, and I think, like all Australians, he's got a right to a freedom of political expression and that's very important. If he wants to go and say that and to push that, then he's absolutely entitled to go and do that. There are also rules that govern what happens on the pitch during the game under the International Cricket Council and through the Australian Cricket Board and they need to be complied with as well and if you don't do that then there's consequences for those decisions. But he's also entitled to go and say what he wants, as every Australian is.

GARY ADSHEAD: Indeed. Now, just quickly, I want to ask you about Australia Day at the UK High Commission. I mean if you can't - I don't know. Clearly there's some issue around the sort of nature of the celebration that has been happening there for two decades. It's a gala, it raises money for a foundation, but it sounds like the current UK Commissioner, Stephen Smith, is against it. What do you make of that one?

ANDREW HASTIE: Gary, I think Stephen Smith's confusing the role of the High Commissioner or an ambassador with that of a foreign minister or a defence minister. His job is to execute policy. Australia Day is part of our calendar year, it's a day that we celebrate, many Australians celebrate, and I think it's in poor taste for him to undermine that day in the way that he does or has done so far.

GARY ADSHEAD: And has he? That's the question, so Matt, Matt, I'm not certain, I haven't seen anything where he's come out and explained it very well.

MINISTER KEOGH: I've discussed it with him. I was only there a few weeks ago.

GARY ADSHEAD: Okay, cool, yep.

MINISTER KEOGH: You know, this isn't just about Australia Day. Australia Day events will happen at Australia House, and we celebrate in the UK and there's over a million Australian ex-pats. Australia Day is a big thing in the UK as it should be. But it's about using the Government resource appropriately and it's not just about this fundraiser event, and that's an important thing to note. It's a private organisation who wants to run a fundraiser. There's been a number of events where, which have been happening for years and years and years, but no one's really applied any scrutiny to like why do we do this? Why are we spending government money on these events? What's the bang for buck that as a nation, in our national interest, that we get out of those things? Obviously we've got important priorities in the UK - the AUKUS arrangements, free-trade agreements, pursuing our national interests - and those things are really important. Obviously we celebrate Australia Day. Like that's not up for discussion or argument. But it's making sure that the events that are hosted and government money being spent is being spent on the appropriate ways of doing that and that we're focussing -

GARY ADSHEAD: The spokesperson for the UK Commissioner -

MINISTER KEOGH: When I was there, I was there for Remembrance Day. We did the Remembrance Day service at the Australian War Memorial while I was there. That's an important function that Australia House and the High Commissioner provide and run that service as part of our normal operations and that's good that they do that, just as they will do Australia Day celebrations. What's come up here is basically a champagne and canapes event, and if that's what the Opposition's worried about as opposed to cost-of-living issues back at home, fine, they can talk about champagne and canapes at Australia House.

GARY ADSHEAD: Andrew doesn't strike me as a champagne type of guy.

ANDREW HASTIE: Yeah, Emu Export will be fine, Matt. But what I'd love to see is a comparison of the budget for The Voice function they had at Australia House where they had Julia Gillard and they had a drag performer singing John Farnham's The Voice song, versus the Australia Day budget and I'd love to see how they match up.

I will say this, Gary, a lot of people here in Perth, they're not staring into the mirror on Australia Day asking ‘who am I?’, as some might be. They're proud to be Australian. They're proud of parliamentary democracy, rule of law, our unique geography and the fusion of our Indigenous heritage, our British settlement and history, and our immigrant character. They're the three things that we celebrate on Australia Day.

MINISTER KEOGH: No disagreement there and we will be doing that.

GARY ADSHEAD: Just quickly, you get a holiday now, you two, get a break?

MINISTER KEOGH: I said in my Christmas card to Andrew, I hope he works on some better gags for next year because I'm not the comedic talent here, I understand that.

ANDREW HASTIE: Here we go -

GARY ADSHEAD: You’re a good combination. Sort of the two Ronnies, check that out when you get home -

MINISTER KEOGH: Am I the fat one?

GARY ADSHEAD: Morecambe and Wise, that's another duo. You could be on to something here if the political careers end, get out there.

ANDREW HASTIE: It's Michael Scott and David Brent, the question is who's who?

GARY ADSHEAD: I reckon the podcast will be gold if you decide to do one of those. Thanks very much for joining us. Thanks very much for the chocolates. Yeah, I will share them with the staff. Guys, if I don't see you before Christmas, which I don't think I do. I look out at the producers, and they shake their heads or whatever.

MINISTER KEOGH: They're just ignoring you.

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah, they usually do. Then have a great Christmas. Thanks very much for your contribution. I know sometimes things get a little bit inflamed but, you know - 

MINISTER KEOGH: That's good.

ANDREW HASTIE: It's always good, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: We'll see you next year.

ANDREW HASTIE: You bet, Gary. Have a great Christmas.

MINISTER KEOGH: Thanks very much for that. Cheers.\

END

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