Television Interview - ABC Afternoon Briefing

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
ABC NEWS
AFTERNOON BRIEFING 
MONDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2024

SUBJECTS: Awarding of the Victoria Cross to Private Richard Norden.

HOST, GREG JENNETT: Veterans' Affairs Matt Keogh was behind the processes that led to the Norden VC, and he joins us on the programme now. Matt, welcome back to the programme. So, this is gallantry in May 1968, when Richard Norden was, I believe, 20 years old. Describe, if you can, for those not familiar with the story, the circumstances around Fire Support Base Coral, which is just north, as I understand it, of Tan Uyen.

MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL, MATT KEOGH: So, we have a situation where during the Battle of Coral and Balmoral, which was the longest battle that Australians were engaged in, it had the largest number of casualties of Australians involved in the Vietnam War. Private Norden's section were at about a kilometre out from their base at the time when the enemy engaged with them, and their section commander and a scout were a little further ahead than the main group. The main group were able to take cover, but Private Norden ran out to recover both his section commander and scout under fire. He was injured, but still managed to rescue the section commander, effectively saving his life. But he didn't stop there. He went back out, discovered that the scout from their section had been fatally wounded. He was able to kill the enemy combatant who was using the scout's body as a shield, returned to the group to get grenades to come back out, clear the area of the enemy, so that he could then recover the body of the scout as well. Some would describe this as a pretty crazy brave activity by Private Norden. To go out three times under fire, injured himself to save the life of a fellow soldier. And it really reflects that ANZAC spirit and very deserving of a Victoria Cross.

JENNETT: We will come to some process questions, but it is remarkable, isn't it, on so many levels, because of his relative youth and low rank at the time. I mean, do the accounts of the day suggest that this was an inspired act by himself alone, or was it authorised in any sense?

MINISTER KEOGH: He took action, you know, of his own initiative immediately. This is not an environment where there was time for orders. And I said the section commander was the person who was injured on the ground. So, out of his own volition, he went out from cover took, was injured himself and was able to rescue his section commander. And unfortunately the scout was killed, but he was able to act in a way where they could recover the body, which is incredibly important as well, not leaving anyone behind.

JENNETT: And then we jump forward to the next phase of his life when he returns to Australia, leaves the military and dies in another form of service, working for the Australian Federal Police, effectively as a motorcycle constable. I take it you've had the chance to speak to the family or members of the -

MINISTER KEOGH: The Governor-General's engaged with the family, as you would expect with someone taken so young in their life as well. A lot of the family, you know, have been living their life sort of since that time and they have requested their privacy at this time. And we very much respect that. But I want to thank people like George Hulse and other veterans that really got behind the case of Private Norden with the support of the family. But to bring it to life. It's a story that was known, but not well known, to make sure that it got the appropriate recognition through a Victoria Cross.

JENNETT: So, I don't want to get too bogged down in process because it's thoroughly deserved by all accounts, but many people would be curious about the timeline here. The King approves this, of course, but why did it take half a century for this to be formally recognised through the appropriate channels?

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah. So, as I said, it was a story that was known. It's been set out in some of the histories of Vietnam, but not a well known story. And some veteran advocates decided that it should be that Private Norden's actions really deserved that highest honour. So, they sought review through the Department of Defence and ultimately through the Defence Honours and Awards Tribunal, which produced a recommendation, as we've seen with some other recipients of the VC previously, that Private Norden deserved to receive a Victoria Cross. Once the tribunal produces its report, that then requires consideration by government processes. And as you said, because it is our highest military honour, it needs a personal sign off by the Sovereign as well, which adds to the processes engaged to get from that review report through to the awarding of the VC.

JENNETT: And forgive my ignorance, but are there other cases pending of a similar nature from that war, in particular Vietnam War, which has been sort of highlighted by advocates, but not yet reached this level?

MINISTER KEOGH: Not of this level, but there has been a reasonably regular drumbeat of cases going back to the Vietnam War and other conflicts of that era and even before, where people seek to review the level of gallantry award that someone has been awarded, to seek to have that upgraded or to receive a gallantry award where one was not awarded. And that's why the tribunal does important work. But as you would appreciate as well, we're now talking about matters that occurred, events that occurred over 50 years ago, which does make the work of the tribunal difficult as well.

JENNETT: I understand. Why don't we jump forward to more recent war and conflict? Is there effectively a hold now on VC awards for Australians who fought in the Afghanistan War? And, you know, I could lay out the reasons. War crimes investigations, return of distinguished service medals ordered for up to nine commanders, are no further awards under active consideration for that cohort.

MINISTER KEOGH: So, I think, you know, the matters you've raised in terms of review of activities that have occurred in Afghanistan are quite different to considerations of valour and considerations of gallantry that have occurred during those conflicts that Australians have been engaged in. And so I wouldn't say that the occurrences there that have been the subject of things like the Brereton Report and others necessarily have an impact on whether there would be further awards that may come out of those conflicts -

JENNETT: So there's not a blanket ban on further consideration of Afghanistan -

MINISTER KEOGH: No, there's not -

JENNETT: Honours at the highest level?

MINISTER KEOGH: It's not. Those two things are managed in a separate way. And I'd also like to point out that we still have Australians, especially today on Remembrance Day, when we think about war and we think about conflict, we shouldn't forget there's about 2,500 Australians engaged in peacekeeping right now around the globe. So, it's not. We shouldn't just think, oh, Australia's involvement in overseas engagements and operations finished with Afghanistan. There are other things that Australians are very properly involved in. We've been involved in peacekeeping operations every day since 1947 in different parts of the globe.

JENNETT: Yep. Now, also where you were this morning, the Australian War Memorial, not for the first time, has been brought back from refurbishment to a point where you can have events like you had on the parade ground this morning. You satisfied that this is a demonstration, all is on track with that major project? Half a billion dollars.

MINISTER KEOGH: It is. It's a large project, but it's significant and important for exactly what we were just discussing. The War Memorial had run out of space to properly be able to reflect the work that we do, such as through Afghanistan, Iraq and, in fact, even peacekeeping operations and other areas. And so being able to properly reflect that required more space. I took about 10 or so Members and Senators through during the week before Parliament started last week so that they could see the work unfolding and how we'll be using that space. And everyone was very impressed with what's happening there, the way in which it's being put together, the improvement in not just how much we will be able to display, the stories we will be able to tell. And that's the fundamentally important thing when we think about the 103,000 names on the War Memorial, people who have given their life for our country, making their stories and the people who fought alongside them real for all Australians.

JENNETT: Yep. Even in its unfinished form, it looked reasonably impressive from what I could see from here today. Matt Keogh, thanks so much for updating us on the latest VC, Richard Norden.

MINISTER KEOGH: Thanks, Greg.

END

Open Arms – Veterans & Families Counselling provides 24/7 free confidential crisis support for current and ex-serving ADF personnel and their families on 1800 011 046 or the Open Arms website. Safe Zone Support provides anonymous counselling on 1800 142 072. Defence All-Hours Support Line provides support for ADF personnel on 1800 628 036 or the Defence Health Portal. Defence Member and Family Helpline provides support for Defence families on 1800 624 608.