Radio Interview - 6PR Perth Radio Mornings with Gary Adshead - Thursday, 29 February 2024

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
6PR PERTH RADIO
MORNINGS WITH GARY ADSHEAD

HOST, GARY ADSHEAD: Indeed. And they're raring to go in Canberra as they join me. Matt Keogh and Andrew Hastie, thanks very much for joining me, gentlemen.

MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL, MATT KEOGH: Great to be with you, Gary.

SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE, ANDREW HASTIE: Pleasure as always, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: Okay, I tell you what, tongues must be wagging over your side of the country in Canberra right now. Who's the former politician that turned spy?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, I think, you know, ASIO and the security agencies have taken a very deliberate approach to this, and rightly so, that it's important to highlight the issues. But they don't want to be and shouldn't be engaged in the sort of politicking that can come from identifying individuals. They've taken a deliberate approach to this and don't want to influence those sorts of issues. But it's important that people are aware that this is going on.

ANDREW HASTIE: Yeah. So, for your listeners, Gary, Mike Burgess, the Director General of ASIO, gives a speech every year, and I was there last night, which was at the ASIO Headquarters. And it's the third year in a row that Mike Burgess has said that espionage and foreign interference has taken over terrorism as our principal threat and security concern. I think these case studies are very helpful for the Australian people to understand how foreign intelligence services work. It helps them to be mindful of the threat and challenge. And I think it was an excellent speech, but it would be inappropriate to speculate. And people should just take away that everyone are targets, local government, state government, federal government, people in business. Anyone who has access to privileged information, whether it be commercial or government, could be a target and they need to be alert to it.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, why hasn't the person who's a former politician been hauled before the court?

ANDREW HASTIE: I'll take this. As the former Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, it's very, very difficult to seek a prosecution for foreign interference or espionage because it requires using classified material which they don't want to get into the public domain. And moreover, it can compromise sources, methods and operations. Matt, being the lawyer, probably knows more about the legal side of this, but certainly it's very, very difficult. And so ASIO has a remit to make things public. They can disrupt in other ways. They do a lot of disruptions using their existing powers, but getting someone before a court and prosecuting them for those charges is a very difficult thing to do.

MINISTER KEOGH: Very much, sometimes the correct approach here is to disrupt, prevent and stop and make sure that at the same time, we don't give up the way we are operating and what we know about what other actors are doing in our country or trying to do in our country. And so that means that taking things through a public process is not the way to get the best outcome overall.

ANDREW HASTIE: But the point last night, and Mike Burgess made this clear, he's using these case studies as a form of disinfectant, because sometimes the best way to disrupt something is to pour some disinfectant or give it sunlight and expose it. And I think that's what he did.

GARY ADSHEAD: He says that they sold out the country, but they still walk amongst us. I don't understand it. I know, Joe Hockey, of course, one of your former colleagues, Andrew, and the former Ambassador to the United States, has said, well, this is great. Just besmirches the reputation of every politician that's walked through your place.

ANDREW HASTIE: I don't think so. I don't think it besmirches the reputation of everyone. I think-

GARY ADSHEAD: If you don’t know you'd all be second guessing things, wouldn't you?

MINISTER KEOGH: But I think, Gary, I don't hold to that view. But it's also important in what Mike Burgess has done here, is that he's not identifying the country or the person involved, but he's making it very clear to any potential foreign actors in Australia, we will find you and we will stop you.

GARY ADSHEAD: We know that. We do know that. I mean, we're not idiots. We all know that this is what ASIO does. But for him to come out and suggest that there's been a former politician who tried to send a spy into the Prime Minister's family, et cetera. I mean, I think the public have a right to know more about it, don't they? I mean, come on, we all know what spies do. We all know all that sort of stuff. But given that he's gone to this extent, to highlight this case without actually telling us who he's talking about is quite bizarre.

MINISTER KEOGH Well, I think, as Andrew has rightly outlined, and he was Chair of the Intelligence Committee for some time, Government takes this - all governments take this very seriously, but a calibrated and deliberate approach needs to be taken with how we deal with these matters in the public sphere. And there is benefit to dealing with elements in the public sphere and making clear to the community that these things are being taken seriously and they're being interrupted and conveying that message to potential foreign actors as well. But it's also important that in doing that, we don't give up sources, we don't give up methods, and we don't convey information that may undermine our national security as well.

GARY ADSHEAD: I don't know. I reckon punters are sitting there going, whoever this person is deserves to be outed. Because if that's all we can achieve with what we've seen in this document and the speech by the Head of ASIO, then that's better than nothing, and it seems like all we've got is really a nice story with no meat on it.

ANDREW HASTIE: And Gary, if there was to be a naming that would be on the Government because they have the information. Whereas for anyone to speculate or guess, you could very quickly end up with a defamation concerns notice on your front doorstep. And that's the risk here. I take the case study at face value. I've had access to briefings, so I understand not that particular set of circumstances closely, but I understand the trends in some detail and they are concerning. And so, the lesson I want your listeners to take away is that ASIO is on top of this, but it's at the highest level, exceeding that of the Cold War, espionage and foreign interference, that is.

GARY ADSHEAD: Welcome back to Behind Party Lines. Matt Keogh and Andrew Hastie both in Canberra. Thanks very much for your time again, guys. Now, I just want to ask you about the decision to send 6 more ADF personnel to the Red Sea. I mean, I know what Andrew’s kind of said previously. Six more Defence personnel, a British ship is apparently sinking as we speak because of the Houthi rebels. I mean, is 6 personnel enough? Why don’t we have warships there?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, the Australian Government is responding to the requests that we’ve received, and we’re very happy to support the operations there in the way that we’ve been requested. And I know Andrew’s been critical of this, but he overlooks the fact that, you know, when his party were in government last, they were requested to send a ship and refused to do it. We haven’t had such a request, and we’re providing – happily providing, additional personnel to the headquarters operation for this mission. And it is a very important mission.

ANDREW HASTIE: I don’t think that’s correct. There was a request in I think February of 2022. You’ll recall the government changed in May of 2022. A decision was made during the caretaker period. But the point to note here is that Houthi rebels weren’t using ballistic, cruise or kamikaze drones to attack international shipping at the time, as they are now. And I think we’re demonstrating, sadly, that we’re a bit of a fairweather friend because we don’t have Royal Australian Navy vessels alongside the US, the UK, the Italians and other countries who are stepping up to secure global trade routes, which are critical to our prosperity. Look, I wish those six ADF personnel well – of course we back our diggers wherever they are. And – but I think it’s time for strength, and this Government is showing weakness.

GARY ADSHEAD: That’s a big call – fairweather friend. Matt?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, yeah – and it’s also incorrect, because we have met the call that has been made of us. And also our partners there that have asked for the personnel to assist in the command of these operations are also working with us and supporting the work we do to protect freedom of navigation in our region. So, we’re doing the heavy lifting in our region, which is what all of those same countries that Andrew just listed expect from us and what is vitally important to our national interest. And we’re supporting the operations in the Middle East, which are also important to our national interest, in the way that we’ve been asked to do so and that reflects our strategic priorities in our region.

GARY ADSHEAD: Can I just ask you both: the SAS Association came out yesterday and were very critical of new directives that are included in defence personnel training manuals et cetera around accepting cultural sensitivities before deploying working dogs in conflict zones et cetera. You know, the SAS Association say this is just woke nonsense, that you can’t just stop and think about whether someone might be offended by a dog inside their house before you go in.

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, I think, Gary, if you look at what the actual directives are that apply there and consider what they’re in reference to, I don’t think there’s anything woke with complying with the Geneva Convention.

GARY ADSHEAD: What? So it’s part of the Geneva Convention to sort of – to look at the sensitivities that some family might have about you bringing a dog into their house, when you’re in a war zone?

MINISTER KEOGH: That’s not what this is about, Gary. That’s an oversimplification of what – the training that’s being discussed here. The important thing is and the recommendations that this comes about in terms of implementing is ensuring that, as we should always do, comply with the international laws of war, and that’s all this is.

GARY ADSHEAD: What do you say, Andrew?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, Gary, our SAS dog handlers and the ones I’ve worked with, the ones I know, extremely professional people. They love their animals. They work so hard to get them to a high standard. They work very hard to make sure their dogs are discriminant in the way that they do their jobs. We lost a number of dogs overseas who copped rounds instead of our diggers. Really tough, robust dogs. They do an important job and my interest – and I know Matt would feel the same way – is that our war fighters are always well equipped, ready to go and they know that they have our full confidence. So I haven’t read the directive in detail, but in the end when things get messy, we want our guys to have confidence that they can do their job.

MINISTER KEOGH: And we all do have confidence in their capacity to do their job. And clarifying directions is – in no way takes away from that. These are, you know, some of the best and most professionally trained people in our Defence Force and they do amazing work in, as Andrew pointed out, what can be quite difficult circumstances, not just for them as individuals but for the dogs they’re working with as well.

ANDREW HASTIE: And, look, Gary, they don’t like officers, these dogs. I had a couple of them nip at me every once in a while. So they can smell – they can smell people and, yeah, you’ve got to stay clear.

GARY ADSHEAD: They can smell hierarchy.

ANDREW HASTIE: As an officer, you’ve got to look out for these things.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. Hey, very impressed by you, Matt Keogh – I saw you doing what we call a walk and talk all in one take it appeared in relation to streamlining veterans’ issues and veterans’ complaints and veterans’ claims. It’s streamlined and you must be pretty happy with that.

MINISTER KEOGH: Look, I am very happy that we’ve got to this next stage, which is the release of the exposure draft of legislation to move towards simplifying legislation that supports our veterans. We want to make sure that we’ve got a system that’s easier for veterans to know what they’re entitled to, easier for advocates to help them lodge their claims, quicker for the Department to process their claims. We’ve now got to a situation where the backlog we inherited is essentially cleared. If a veteran lodges a claim today it will be with someone within the Department assessing it within 14 days. That’s very important. And this legislation, which we’re consulting on now and we look to have into the Parliament this year, will mean that we have one piece of legislation for all claims going forward, making it simpler and easier for veterans to get the support that they need and deserve.

GARY ADSHEAD: No controversy there, Andrew?

ANDREW HASTIE: Matt called me yesterday morning to let me know about it, and in the last – what – 18 hours I haven’t had a chance to really catch up on it. But certainly I look forward to seeing what he’s done and how the harmonisation will work. I’ll do my job as the Opposition and scrutinise it and hold him to account where necessary – or at least, you know, have a good debate with him. But certainly, Gary, I had my claim resolved last year. It took just under four years, so I’m very alive and sensitive to some of the struggles that our veterans have getting their paperwork sorted. And it’s got to be quicker and it’s got to be easier.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right.

MINISTER KEOGH: And Andrew’s point is exactly right – getting to this point I’ve had very good and constructive engagement with the Opposition, the Crossbench. This isn’t about politics; this is about making a better system for our veterans. And to all the veterans out there, families, advocates, jump on the DVA website, have a look at what we’re proposing. There’s simple explainers. There’s scenarios. There’s the opportunity for people to put in what their own circumstances are as a veteran to understand how this legislation would affect them directly, and provide their feedback by the 28th of April so that we can make sure we get this right, because that’s what we’re about.

ANDREW HASTIE: And the Opposition’s view is that we want Matt to succeed in his role because that’s good for our veterans.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. Nice. Very nice, Andrew. I love it. When you get that spy’s name, can you give me a ring back?

ANDREW HASTIE: No worries, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: Appreciate it. Thanks very much for that.

ANDREW HASTIE: You’d better call your legal team, though.

GARY ADSHEAD: We’ve got a good legal team here at Nine. You know that. See you, fellas.

ANDREW HASTIE: Thanks Gary

MINISTER KEOGH: See you Gary

END

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