Radio Interview - 6PR Perth Radio - Mornings with Gary Adshead

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 
6PR PERTH RADIO 
MORNINGS WITH GARY ADSHEAD 
THURSDAY, 25 JULY 2024

SUBJECTS: Cabinet Retirements, Veterans’ Legal Service, AUKUS, Construction Division of CFMEU.

HOST, GARY ADSHEAD: Yes, and Andrew Hastie and Matt Keogh join me in the studio. Welcome.

MINISTER FOR VETERANS' AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL, MATT KEOGH: Hey, Gary. Great to be with you.

GARY ADSHEAD: It's great to see you guys in here.

MINISTER KEOGH: It's nice to be back with you in the studio.

SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE, ANDREW HASTIE: Good morning, Gary. Good morning, Matt.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright, first up, have you got a new portfolio come Sunday, with the Prime Minister's announcement of a reshuffle?

MINISTER KEOGH: Oh, well, we'll see what happens on Sunday, Gary. It's up to the Prime Minister. But, I mean, I will say I do want to pay tribute to Brendan O'Connor and Linda Burney, who have made, you know, a tremendous impact on our country. Brendan has done really good work in the skills space, you know, bringing that back together, making sure that it's well regulated, but identifying where those skills gaps are and focusing on that. And, obviously, Linda did a lot of great work around the Voice but beyond that, and I think this is often forgotten, her commitment to service both in the Federal Parliament and in the State Parliament of New South Wales, hers is a story of triumph over adversity and she's been a true legend and champion for --

GARY ADSHEAD: Has it deflated her that much that she just thinks, "Well, I can't go on," in terms of losing the referendum? Has it, sort of, taken the wind out of her sails?

MINISTER KEOGH: Oh, I don't think it's about that. I think it - I mean, Linda, as I said, she has had a long career of public service at a state level and at a federal level. And, you know, she's decided that it's time for her, and I think that's very understandable.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright. Now, obviously, Andrew Hastie is one of your biggest fans, so I'm sure he wouldn't be surprised if you were elevated in Cabinet, would you?

ANDREW HASTIE: No, no. We've been using this platform to boost Matt into the Cabinet.

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah.

ANDREW HASTIE: And so I'll be very disappointed if he doesn't get the call up --

MINISTER KEOGH: Now I'm taking some suburbs off Andrew in the redistribution, I'm gonna put his slogans on my flyer all over the shop. But --

GARY ADSHEAD: Oh, I didn't quite realise that.

MINISTER KEOGH: But, no, that's very, very nice of you, Andrew. But, look, there will be a reshuffle on Sunday, with Brendan and Linda retiring, and we'll see...see what happens. I'm very happy in the role that I'm in, though.

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah.

MINISTER KEOGH: And, obviously, I'll serve in whatever capacity the Prime Minister asks. But we have a great Defence team and we work very well as a team, and in my space, covering Defence Personnel and Veterans' Affairs, as we discuss very frequently on this radio show. And, you know, I'm very happy doing what I'm doing.

GARY ADSHEAD: If, of course, you know, Andrew Giles loses Immigration, then I suppose the fact that you've got two retiring Ministers helps with the messaging around this, that this is purely a reshuffle, not because of any panic. I mean, Andrew Hastie has obviously been saying   and his colleagues have been saying   that Mr Giles should have gone a long time ago. What do you think? I mean, should he hold on to that?

MINISTER KEOGH: I think Andrew's, you know, been doing a very strong job --

ANDREW HASTIE: Thank you, Matthew.

MINISTER KEOGH: -- in a very difficult - yeah, you're doing a great job too, Andrew Hastie. But I think Andrew Giles has been doing a very strong job -

ANDREW HASTIE: Oh, come on, come on.

MINISTER KEOGH: -- in some pretty pressing circumstances where the High Court served up a decision that no one was happy with the consequences of that, and we've had to deal with that. And we had the AAT making decisions that were not consistent with how we thought the directive that applied should be applied, and how it was being applied by the Department. And that's been fixed by changing and updating that direction. So, Andrew's been doing tough work. And he's   you've gotta remember, he's deported more people in the two years that he's been in the job than Peter Dutton ever did. So, you know, we've been doing the hard work, Andrew's been doing the hard work in that portfolio.

GARY ADSHEAD: Is it a poisoned chalice, do you think, Andrew Hastie? Because if Matt Keogh ends up with that --

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, I don't think it is at all. I think Peter Dutton, who was a visa cancelling machine as the Immigration and Home Affairs Minister, demonstrated that if you're a competent Minister, you can flourish in that portfolio. And what we've seen with Andrew Giles is incompetence, lack of decisiveness, and flat footedness as the problems unfolded. And he had plenty of warning to deal with the border issues and I just   I think it demonstrated that he's not fit to lead or govern in that role. So, we would welcome him moving out.

GARY ADSHEAD: OK. Hey, I'll just leave that there for a second. Just specifically to both of you, obviously, the Royal Commission into Defence Personnel and Veteran Suicide, and so on, was extremely important. And we've spoken to an organisation that was set up, sort of, you know, in the lead up and was doing a lot of the work in terms of advocacy and helping people out. It was the Veterans Legal Service, OK. They say that their funding comes to an end and that's that. Do you think that service, given the work it's been doing and the, sort of, relationships it's built with veterans, should continue?

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah. So, look, that's been a really great service and we funded the establishment of that service to support veterans that were providing evidence to the Royal Commission specifically. And so the Royal Commission has now come to the end of the evidence hearing part of its work and it will provide us with a final report in September, so very shortly, and we very much look forward to that. Along with providing that assistance to veterans that have been providing evidence to the Royal Commission   whether that's been in writing or at hearings   the Legal Service has also assisted those same veterans in accessing some other services and providing some advocacy support around DVA Veteran claims and other things.

Now, in relation to veterans' claims with DVA specifically, obviously we've been doing a lot of other work in that space about clearing the backlog that we inherited in terms of the claims in DVA, making those systems work better. And I've just introduced legislation to make the processes better as well. But also there are a large number of volunteer advocates who are registered, who are trained, accredited, insured, that do this work for free and that provide that particular service to veterans. I've met with the Legal Service a number of times to understand the other services that they have been providing --

GARY ADSHEAD: So you’re saying - bit of duplication, or not?

MINISTER KEOGH: There has been a degree of duplication.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright.

MINISTER KEOGH: And, of course, if you've got a veteran in front of you who needs that assistance and you're able to provide it, then you don't want to just send them off somewhere else. But there are other providers that provide that particular service. But I have met with the Legal Service a number of times, while I have been in this portfolio, to understand what those other bits that they were doing outside the Royal Commission work. And as part of recognising that, there's a - We took the learnings from that. There was a submission by the Department of Veterans' Affairs supporting the work of the Legal Service that went into the review of Legal Services that was being undertaken by the Government separately by the Attorney General, by Dr Warren Mundy. And there's a recommendation in that about recognising veterans as an in need group within our community that require that additional legal assistance. Now, that review feeds into a process that we need to manage with the states. 'Cause a lot of the legal assistance that was being provided wasn't necessarily about federal issues, it was actually about state issues. But recognising the special position of veterans, the new funding arrangements going forward for legal services generally   whether that is a specific legal service or making sure veterans get better support in other legal services   we're working through that with the states now.

GARY ADSHEAD: OK. I'm only saying this 'cause Nick Kaldas came on this program and said he's a bit surprised that that service wouldn't receive the funding to go forward.

MINISTER KEOGH: Because there's a process that we need to work through with all the states around how we fund services, legal services --

GARY ADSHEAD: That sounds a bit "Sir Humphrey". I mean, what do you think, Andrew?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, I want to see the final report.

GARY ADSHEAD: OK, you're waiting for that, righto.

ANDREW HASTIE: Our position is that, obviously, we support veterans. We had the Veterans' Minister sitting in the Cabinet. Labor does not. So, we prioritised looking after the veteran community. We're gonna wait for the report and we'll respond accordingly, particularly after Matt has the chance to respond as well. And in the end, we want a good, bipartisan solution for our veterans, who we all care about. I don't want to make it a political football.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright, OK. Well, I think that's September, yep?

MINISTER KEOGH: September is the report.

GARY ADSHEAD: OK, we'll follow through on it. A lot of top brass have been in town in recent days. You know, what do you say to people who might go, "Wow, Western Australia really is gonna be on the map in terms of strategically, defence wise"? Should we be concerned about that? I mean, we always have been, of course. Certain barracks here and we've got other military installations. But it feels like AUKUS is really, sort of, descending on Western Australia now. What do you say to anyone that might have concerns?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, I would say, historically, we've always been a country that's provided strategic depth to our allies. And our closest allies have always been the United Kingdom and the USA. In World War II, outer Fremantle and Albany, the US was operating its largest submarine base in the Southern Hemisphere during the Pacific War. We hosted more than a million people. And we have Pine Gap, we've Marines to our north. People who focus on Perth and say, because of AUKUS we're suddenly a target, I think that's a very myopic or short sighted view of the world. So, this is a really important thing that we're doing. It needs work. It's a bipartisan issue. And as I said today in a speech, it's a political project, AUKUS is fundamentally a political project. There were three leaders who started it almost three years ago   President Joe Biden, Prime Minister Scott Morrison, and Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Scott Morrison is out of office, Boris Johnson is out of office, and we've just learned that President Biden will not be recontesting for the presidency. So, it's gotta change and adapt to our electoral cycles, and that's the challenge for us going forward.

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah. Does that worry you, that those three key figures are no longer there?

MINISTER KEOGH: It doesn't, and I'll tell you why. And as Andrew and I speak about this regularly on your show, there is absolute bipartisan support for AUKUS in Australia. And we've seen in the UK, already with the change of Government that has   you know, numerous Prime Ministers but now a change of party as well   there's bipartisan support for AUKUS in the United Kingdom.

And we have seen, through the processes that have been operating in the United States, that this hasn't just been a President Biden led thing. We've seen the legislation go through the Congress, not just to enable us to receive the Virginia class submarines   which is a critical part of our transition through to becoming sovereign capable in operating nuclear powered submarines, but also the legislation that counts Australian defence industry as if it's American defence industry, which means our suppliers, our businesses, are able to directly supply into the American industrial base. That is a huge, huge shift. And the thing about is --

GARY ADSHEAD: Is it about $6 billion or some…?

MINISTER KEOGH: and that legislation wasn't just bipartisan   and it was bipartisan   but it was bipartisan with the support of the Democrats, with the Republicans, and including Trump Republicans. So, and the positive noises we get out of the Trump camp mirror what we see from the Biden camp. So, I think, when you're thinking about setting up something like this, it's a 30 year project, at least, going forward. You can't just go, "Oh, yeah, we're gonna try a 30 year project with a 3 year horizon." Everyone is aligned to, and acknowledges and supports, the long term effort here. But I do want to also say, Gary, that the conference going on right now, the strategic significance of Western Australia and Perth   as Andrew said   is not a new thing. It might be getting new focus because of AUKUS but it is absolutely not a new thing. You know, we're the only sovereign controlled Five Eyes port on the Indian Ocean. We are at a strategic fulcrum point here in the West. As was made very poignantly as a point by the Premier, Roger Cook, yesterday, the length of the Western Australian coastline, if drawn in a straight line, is longer than the distance from Perth to Hawaii. And we orient ourselves as a state   and we have since before Federation   looking west and north because we are such a trade oriented environment. And protecting those sea lanes, protecting that opportunity to trade, is critical not just for Western Australia, it's critical for the whole country. And making sure that that is supported from Western Australia is important.

ANDREW HASTIE: As a follow up point, in my speech this morning, I said that AUKUS is a political project. And the elephant in the room is that a Trump presidency is a real possibility. I'd say it's probable right now. And he and his running mate, JD Vance, are gonna be tough. They're gonna be tough. If you read some of the work done by Dr Peter Navarro, who got a rock star welcome at the Republican National Convention last week, very tough trade policy, demanding more of their allies. And so we can get through all that, of course, but we're gonna hear different noises and we need to step up as a country, potentially with a Trump presidency.

GARY ADSHEAD: Just quickly   I mean, obviously, the UK Defence Chief of Army said... And I haven't seen this specific quote, but he seems to agree with the sentiment that's been put out there, that he's told his people that we need to be prepared for conflict within three years. I mean, that was jarring. You know, three years. And he talked about Russia, he talked about China. Three years   I mean, I think the Government has talked about 10 year windows. Three years   that's scary stuff.

MINISTER KEOGH: It is. But I think it reflects also a reality in Europe that Europe is at war right now. Ukraine has had an invasion from Russia. So, if you think about the environment that the UK is operating in and proximate to its own shores, then it is a bit different to the environment that we are operating in. But there is no doubt that we need to be moving and preparing and enhancing our capability as quickly as we can.

GARY ADSHEAD: Quick enough?

MINISTER KEOGH: We've come off the back of 10 years of not much happening, and so we are moving as rapidly as we can. We've released the new Infrastructure Investment Plan, we're moving forward with the new Surface Combatant Fleet, we've been very clear with our partners that we need this equipment to be provided as quickly as possible. It's why we'll build - the initial, first part of the frigate program will be built overseas before we start commencement here in Western Australia, so that we can get them as quickly as possible. It's why we're doing the work around guided weapons and increasing our capacity to hold an adversary at bay.

GARY ADSHEAD: Right.

ANDREW HASTIE: That's all great. But, look, if you follow the money, Labor are not investing much over the next four years. $5.7 billion --

MINISTER KEOGH: A lot more than you were --

ANDREW HASTIE: And most of that - $3.7 billion - is in year four. So, they tell us that the situation is urgent, and what do they do? They spend about, you know, 5 per cent to 10 per cent of their overall spend over the next decade in the next four years. So, they're kicking it out into the long grass, which is a big problem.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright. I'll come back to that. It's 12 minutes to 10:00. Matt Keogh, Andrew Hastie in the studio with me. If you've got a question, feel free - 133 882. Don't let me ask them all, they get sick of hearing my voice. Back soon.

[Commercial break.]

GARY ADSHEAD: Now, just quickly, folks, WA Police are responding to a helicopter crash near Mount Anderson Station in Camballin, which is about 120 k's south of Derby. They found out about this at 6:20am this morning. Now, the indications   according to the media statement from WA Police   is that two helicopters have collided shortly after take off. Now, it's believed both helicopters were solely occupied by pilots. At this time, the details of those on board and the extent of their injuries are unknown. So, we'll keep you across that, but that's no good. It's nothing to do with - it's not a military issue. It's nothing to do with what's going on in the north of our state and beyond, it's purely some sort of commercial, or whatever, situation with helicopter pilots. We'll give you more details.

Back to my two guests. Rick is on the line, he's got a question, I think. G'day, Rick.

RICK: Yeah, look, maybe for Andrew, but I was watching an item the other day about the drone that Boeing and the Australian Defence Force have built together. I think it's called the Loyal Wingman. And, apparently, there were plans [indistinct] decided not to give us the armament. Got any comment on that, Andrew?

GARY ADSHEAD: So, that's the drone --

ANDREW HASTIE: That is the Boeing Ghost Bat, which has been developed here in Australia, something we're very proud of, something that we were hoping to, you know, build into an arms platform as well as a surveillance platform. I'm getting a brief from the Government on that, Rick. Thank you for the question. It is concerning. Of course, we want to see Australian defence industry grow. We're very proud of what we have done with that and we want to see that commercialised and exported to other allies around the world. And I think it's critical that it has an armament because that's what will give it an edge. So, we have a question about that and we'll be following that up. So, thanks for the question.

MINISTER KEOGH: Yeah, so what's happened here is that the developer of that   the Loyal Wingman, the Ghost Bat   is Boeing, Boeing Australia. They were looking to participate in a weapons program through the United States that would then have enabled the weapons package that would be able to operate with that program. Boeing have not been successful in that. But regardless of that, the platform still provides a very important intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capability and payload. So, the way in which the - just to give you the broad context, this is - imagine a drone that's almost the size of a fighter aircraft, is able to fly with other aircraft, and you can change the payload. So, you can have an ISR   an intelligence, surveillance   payload. The option that was being explored is whether there could be a weapon payload that would go with this as part of this particular program being run with the US. Boeing have not been successful in the competitive process that was operating there to enable that particular element at this stage. We'll continue the development of the platform because the platform is actually very good regardless of how   which other payloads you're able to operate.

GARY ADSHEAD: Yep?

MINISTER KEOGH: And we'll continue to develop it further --

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright.

MINISTER KEOGH: -- and there will be further briefings --

GARY ADSHEAD: I don't have a lot of time, so, I mean, this is a curly one to throw at you both towards the end. But why is the WA Labor Party protecting the CFMEU in this state as opposed to what Labor Parties are doing around the country? Why are they doing that? No one wants to talk about it here. It's like, "Oh, no, no, ours is a clean, wonderful organisation. It's all fine."

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, I can't speak to how the State Government may be responding but I can certainly understand, from their point of view, that the union is predominantly federally regulated. We've been very clear   based on the reporting that happened over east   we want to see someone brought in to administer the union independently, and that's really important. And we've been clear that, no doubt, that that person, in conducting their investigations, will also look at recent reporting all around the country. And if they recommend that there needs to be an expansion from broader than just those east coast components of the union, then we would obviously support that, based on whatever their investigations show.

GARY ADSHEAD: It's a hard one for Labor, isn't it, Andrew? The CFMEU --

ANDREW HASTIE: I wonder how much money the WA Labor Party have received from the CFMEU --

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, $25,000 this year.

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, there you go.

GARY ADSHEAD: That's probably for a leaders' forum, or something.

ANDREW HASTIE: And if it is an organisation that's, you know, got some serious criminal questions to answer, they should return that money. And I say this from someone who has returned a $10,000 donation to someone who had very close affiliation to the Chinese Communist Party and was deported in the last five years or so. I found out about it and I returned the money. So, there's the challenge for the WA Labor Party.

GARY ADSHEAD: Can they take - can WA Labor keep taking CFMEU donations?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, donations have been suspended.

GARY ADSHEAD: OK.

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, are you gonna return any --

GARY ADSHEAD: In WA as well?

MINISTER KEOGH: My understanding is --

ANDREW HASTIE: Are you gonna return any? That's the real question.

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, that's --

ANDREW HASTIE: It's all good to say, "I'm not gonna take any more money --"

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah, but why would you give it back to them? I mean, why would you give money back to an organisation that you might have concerns about?

MINISTER KEOGH: Oh, well, no, but that's - Gary raises a very legitimate point --

GARY ADSHEAD: It's like giving 10 grand back to the... And I'm not suggesting this, but if you said you had issues with the Mafia, I hear --

ANDREW HASTIE: But what about the membership? The membership of the CFMEU? I mean, there are probably good workers there who are expecting their bosses to be doing the right thing. It's their money. So, just because the leadership is crook, it doesn't mean that workers should suffer.

MINISTER KEOGH: And that's why having an administrator appointed is a very important aspect of how this operates, as opposed to just what Peter Dutton's proposed, which was deregister it, let it keep doing what it's already doing but it's no longer regulated. Having an administrator means that you bring in people to run it properly in the interests of members, which is what we're all about.

ANDREW HASTIE: So, you'll take the money.

GARY ADSHEAD: Alright, I'm giving - I'm giving James conniptions here.

ANDREW HASTIE: You'll take the money.

GARY ADSHEAD: James will be standing over me in a sec if I don't get us to the next break. Andrew, Matt, thanks very much for coming in. We look forward to seeing you in your next guise next time around Matt Keogh, appreciate it.

MINISTER KEOGH: Thanks, support crew!

ANDREW HASTIE: Thanks, Gary. Cheers, bye.

END

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