Podcast - The Guardian Australian politics

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
The Guardian Australian Politics Podcast
Friday, 24 April 2026

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TOM MCILROY, HOST: Hi, I'm Tom McIlroy, the political editor at Guardian Australia. On the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people in Canberra. Ahead of Anzac Day commemorations this Saturday, my guest on the podcast is Matt Keogh, the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs and Defence Personnel. Nearly two years on, from the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide, Keogh talks to us about the challenges and opportunities for former ADF members. We discussed the Government's plans to dramatically increase Defence spending in the May budget and controversy around the sale of historic military properties in Australia.

MATT KEOGH, MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL: So it's, it's not just about selling off estate. It's also about making sure that we've got the best fit facilities to support our modern integrated Defence Force.

MCILROY: Keogh talks about the fallout from war crimes charges against Ben Roberts-Smith, all of which the SAS veteran strongly denies. The Minister discusses what the allegations mean for the Australian War Memorial in Canberra, where Roberts-Smith’s service gear and medals are currently on display. I spoke with the Perth based Minister in the lead up to his trip to Papua New Guinea for Anzac Day commemorations this weekend.

This is the Australian politics podcast.

Well, Matt Keogh, welcome to the Australian Politics Podcast.

KEOGH: Tom, great to be with you.

MCILROY: Thanks very much for taking the time. Now we're going to get into the news of the week in a few moments, but we're speaking in the week of Anzac Day, the commemoration of the first landings at Gallipoli by Australian and New Zealand Forces. So it's appropriate to ask you about that. Such a significant national day. Let me ask you, I've often thought, given the contested nature of Australia Day, do you think Anzac Day is a de-facto National Day, an important event in Australia's calendar?

KEOGH: Well, Anzac Day is certainly our most significant day of commemoration and I think given the nature of how we relate as a country to the Anzac spirit, it is a national day of significance. Absolutely. And it's not just about commemorating those first landings at Gallipoli, but it's really about commemorating those people and everyone who followed them. Everyone who has put on the Australian uniform to fight in various wars, conflicts have also participated in peacekeeping operations around the globe. Through to this day and commemorating all of the service. Obviously the sacrifice of the over 103,000 Australians that have lost their lives, but also those that returned to Australia with injuries visible and invisible. But also recognising the families and the communities really impacted by that service as well.

MCILROY: And how do you see the day evolving in your time in the portfolio and in recent years? I mean, it certainly has a uniting force for the whole country, I think.

KEOGH: I think it's absolutely a day that the country comes together with that focus on those that have made selfless sacrifice on all of our behalf, making sure that we commemorate that service, that we recognise the sacrifice, and importantly as a country convey to those that put on our uniform not just in the past, not just now, but those who may put it on in the future as well, that their service will not be forgotten, that that is something that this nation appreciates and will remember long after that service may have happened.

MCILROY: And I know it's a hectic day for Federal MPs. How do you commemorate Anzac Day? You've got a special job as the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs.

KEOGH: Well, as Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, it's a bit different to say what I would have done just as a local Member of Parliament, when certainly you're trying to participate in community commemoration at local war memorials. But as Minister I will be attending commemorations in PNG this year. I think the Kokoda story is one well known across Australia, that resilience, that perseverance, but also working in partnership with the people of Papua New Guinea is a strong one that really reflects the Anzac Spirit forged in Gallipoli in the First World War and continuing to resonate through our service through the Second World War. And so I'll be participating in commemorations in PNG, which is just one of the many Anzac commemorations that happen all over the globe for Australians and New Zealanders.

MCILROY: In your dual role as Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, as well as Defence Personnel, tell us how work implementing the Royal Commission findings after the Commission into Veteran Suicide is progressing. Do you think that there are significant improvements underway? Are you seeing the result of those changes?

KEOGH: Well, the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide was incredibly important. It's why we called for it in Opposition and in Government it's why that we've taken to implementing the recommendations as quickly as we're able to, but also making sure we're getting it right as we go. And so we'll see, for example, from the 1st of July this year, the new simplified harmonised Veteran Entitlements scheme. The new legislation kicks in from the 1st of July, and that was about implementing a recommendation from the interim report of the Royal Commission. We got the final report in September of 2024 and we were able to produce our government response to that by December of that year because we recognised the importance of acting quickly. And the most important recommendation that the Royal Commission said was about establishing a statutory oversight body for the veteran ecosystem. And we'd legislated that by February 2025. When I provided an update at the end of last year. We'd already completed a quarter of those recommendations being implemented and we're on track to have two thirds of those recommendations implemented by the end of this year because we do recognise the significance of making sure that we move promptly in implementing these recommendations.

Now, that's going to include things like the new Wellbeing Agency that's going to be set up in the middle of this year as well. And there's important legislation in the Parliament now and there's more legislation to come over the course of this year which implements recommendations themselves, but also sets up the conditions that we need in terms of changes to enable us to set up and implement other recommendations next year that need this legislation in place in order to be able to do those, some of these things really need to be staged out, that we do see it as very significant and important for those people currently in service our veterans, people who have been in service, as well as sending a very clear message to those who may be thinking about joining our Defence Force that we are addressing these issues properly and promptly.

MCILROY: So a veteran with psychological or physical harm, sometimes both from their military service, would have a materially different experience today compared with before the Royal Commission?

KEOGH: I think that is certainly the case. One of the things we did as soon as we came into Government was make sure that we were properly resourcing the Department of Veterans’ Affairs and actually the work we were doing there was, ended up being reflected in recommendations of the interim report of the Royal Commission, and that was about making sure that we didn't see this backlog of claims that we had inherited when we came into Government in 2022 that hadn't even been looked at by anyone in the Department.

And now when someone makes a claim for initial liability to get access to health care and treatment, that will be looked at within 14 days. And that means that, that claim is being reviewed, they're being triaged in terms of prioritisation. They're being checked to make sure all the information that's needed is there to make sure that that claim can progress. And we've brought down that processing time on average as well. So we are looking at about for a claim lodged now, about four months for a claim to get processed, and that's come way down from where it was taking over a year on average to get a claim processed. Now we know there's more improvements to make there and we're doing that. But it does mean there's a very different experience for a veteran making a claim today compared to say, when we came to Government four years ago.

MCILROY: I guess it might sound bureaucratic to some of our listeners, but that quick turnaround time that you describe would be very important. The value of early intervention in preventing further harm, limiting the effect of physical or psychological illness can be really important in treatment and getting people back on a stable footing for future life.

KEOGH: It's incredibly important. It's one of the things we've been really trying to amplify over recent time as well. We've made a significant investment into making sure that we are concentrating more on that upfront treatment, rehabilitation, making sure that working with Defence, we're trying to prevent injuries from occurring in the first place where that's possible, but also get those mitigation strategies and treatments in place as well so that things don't become worse over time. Because what we really want and what the Royal Commission really highlighted was to have a broader wellbeing focus on how we support our veterans. And so if we can make sure veterans are accessing treatment or accessing rehabilitation early, that means they're going to have a better overall outcome. In terms of that injury, it might not mean the injury goes away, but it may not be as severe and that's incredibly important then for the rest of their life. And so it's important that we're able to do that and we're making a significant investment now in making sure that we're looking at that sort of lifetime wellbeing approach in terms of prevention, in terms of treatment, rehabilitation, getting in early, that's important.

MCILROY: Have there been improvements on post service employment? You know, there's been a big push by governments over recent years to talk up the value of veterans in private sector employment. Other fields of work across the economy, are employment standards and targets being met since the commission?

KEOGH: So in terms of veteran employment, what we have been doing is really leaning in in making sure that employers understand the great benefit of employing veterans because they bring so much to the workplace. If you think about the investment we've made in them, in terms of their skills, their experience, their training, they then bring to a workplace leadership, teamwork, being able to work well under pressure, agility, things that any workplace can benefit from, which is incredibly important. But from the flip side, as well is our Veteran Employment Commitment, where we're getting employers to sign up and there's different tiers within this to say that they are an employer that is looking to support veterans in the workplace, that want to have veterans in the workplace, that they recognise the benefit. And we support those employers as well in terms of understanding where veterans are coming from as well. And we've had good sign up for that. That's been really good. And I have to say I'm regularly out and about and talking to people in industry where they come to me. So how do I find more veterans? How do I get more veterans to come and work in my organisation? Because I've had veterans come to work for them and I've seen the benefit.

That's a great story and I think it's a really critical part of how we dispel this myth of the broken veteran. Too much time is spent talking about problems and we need to talk about those problems, but without recognising that the vast majority of people who serve in our Defence Force have very successful positive careers in Defence and then go on to very successful careers and lives after their time in Defence. And whilst there are people that do need that extra support and that's been highlighted through things like the Royal Commission and rightly, people like me in my role as Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, concentrate on those things. But we also need to make sure that the public understand that for the vast majority of our veteran community, they're not broken. They're very successful in what they do. They've been incredibly well trained and they've had great experience. And that's what we want people to sort of have as their lasting impression of our veteran community.

MCILROY: Is that a uniquely Australian problem, that idea of a broken veteran? Is that a stereotype in other parts of the world? Have there been successes in addressing it elsewhere?

KEOGH: Certainly it's not a uniquely Australian problem and that is something that's been confronted by other countries as well and that gives us an opportunity to learn. Though often our veteran support schemes are quite different from country to country. So how we might implement those learnings can differ, but it's not, it's an, but it's not a unique thing to Australia. But what's important is and if you think about we're just talking about the significance of Anzac Day, that's a unique, almost uniquely Australian thing. We share that with New Zealand. And so the opportunity to talk to these sorts of issues and to make sure the community is familiar with these views and understands this is presented to us in different ways to say how it might be in some other countries.

MCILROY: And at the other end of the spectrum, the starting point for some of these questions, I think the outgoing Chief of Defence, Admiral David Johnson, has had some positive things to say about recruitment targets for the ADF. It seems like in the personnel part of your portfolio there might be some improvements going on.

KEOGH: Certainly, you know, we inherited a recruitment crisis. Defence was shrinking when we came into Government and we saw that we were not recruiting enough people, but also people were leaving the Defence force in too high numbers. What we've now been able to deliver is in last financial year, so 2024-25, we enlisted over 7,000 permanent full time personnel to the Defence force. That was the highest recruitment number we've had in 15 years, but also the separation rate, so the rate at which people are leaving the Defence Force has now fallen down to seven and a half per cent. Now the sort of ten year average had been 9.5 per cent, so we're now well below that. And the separation rate when we came to Government was running above 10%, so we've seen significant improvement in people coming in, but also people staying in the Defence Force as well. And that's been through implementing things like our Workforce Plan that came out of the National Defence Strategy in 2024 after we had the Defence Strategic Review. So having things like continuation bonuses, expanding access to Defence Health to Defence family members, having more flexibility in how we support Defence housing, opening up access to DOHAS, there's been a whole range of things we've done, expanded access to study while you're serving in the Defence force, for example. So we're trying to make service in the Defence Force more attractive and that helps keep people in, but it also makes it more attractive for people to join as well.

MCILROY: I may get to ask you the response from veterans and veterans’ organisations about the Defence Estate project that is underway with Defence Minister Richard Marles and others. I think it's 67 sites around the country that are surplus to requirement, no longer of a strategic value to the Defence Force. But many of these places, barracks and training grounds and other facilities are where some of the veterans you represent in the portfolio will have served. Have you had pushback about the sale of these sites? I think the price tag is something like $3 billion.

KEOGH: So, look, one of, the feedback we've had has broadly been that we recognise the need to do this and that there's a whole heap of sites that are completely surplus to requirements by Defence that has been broadly acknowledged. There are some sites that are out of more, if you like, emotional and historical significance to people that has caused some concern with some groups within the veteran community and we always knew that that would be the case. And what we've been looking at delivering in terms of the Defence Estate Review and the sale of those sites is that this actually opens up access to those sites, to the public and to veterans in a way that actually wasn't previously possible because they were operating Defence sites, or they were not operating Defence sites and they were completely fenced off and no one ever went into them.

The heritage value of those buildings is recognised and protected, and there's an opportunity through the sale to have them even better maintained than they are now, but importantly also to give people greater access to them. In terms of those quite significant historical sites that people have great attachment to, and that's not necessarily because they ever served on those bases, I should say, it's just because of their historical significance to particular Services in the Defence Force, the opportunity to make sure that they become available, to be accessed in a way that they never were before is a quite a unique one. And we're working through that with the local communities in those areas as well as the veteran community in those spaces to make sure we get the best use out of them for the broader community whilst also returning value to Defence in terms of the overall estate sale.

The other part of this, which is quite attractive to many people who are in service, is that where we are moving units and groups away from older bases that might have been built in the fifties and are really not fit for purpose anymore. They will move into new facilities on other existing bases that will be much more fit for purpose for what those units need them to do and to support them. So it's not just about selling off estate, it's also about making sure that we've got the best fit facilities to support our modern integrated Defence force.

MCILROY: Is it possible that veterans feedback could change the list of properties that are being considered for sale? Is it still that 67 number full steam ahead on those properties being sold off?

KEOGH: Yeah, we're not changing what's for sale, but we've always said that these sites that some people have got concerns about are already heritage protected. So they would be sold in the context of those heritage protections being part of that. And we can look at how they get utilised going forward in a way that's sympathetic to those that heritage value and where people want to be able to have access to some of those historical buildings.

And we've seen this happen before, like this isn't anything new either. I had the great opportunity last week of announcing the location for a new Veterans’ and Families’ Hub in the south west of Sydney that's going to be located on the former Bardia Barracks site. That site was disposed of by the Commonwealth some decades ago and part of it will now be repurposed in the most historical buildings there to be the home of a Hub to support our veteran community. So they'll have access to those buildings and it'll be providing a benefit to the veteran community. Meanwhile, the rest of the site has been developed to provide much needed housing in that very rapidly growing south western Sydney corridor. And you know, that's because a disposal that happened many decades ago and we've been able to work with the New South Wales Government who had taken that site on so that we're now getting a real win win for the veteran community, restoring those historical buildings and also the release of Defence land by the Commonwealth.

There's a barracks in the middle of Perth that was disposed of by Defence in the early nineties. It's now got a hospitality venue in it in the oldest of the buildings there on that barracks site, the people now have access to it can go in and can see this building and see its history and heritage in a way that was never possible when it was a functional barracks because it was completely fenced and no one could ever go inside it.

So I think it's important to look at this through that lens, about the opportunity, the opportunity that this presents, not just to Defence in terms of best use of our assets, but also in terms of public access and protecting the heritage value of these sites.

MCILROY: Okay. Let me ask you about a story that I'm sure veterans around the country will have been watching closely. Ben Roberts-Smith, one of Australia's most decorated soldiers, has been charged with five counts of the war crime of murder. He's been granted bail and strenuously denies the allegations against him. I understand you won't speak about the case, but could I ask you about the response from veterans? I imagine that it will have been concerning for them to see a SAS veteran facing these charges.

KEOGH: Yeah, Tom, as you said, I can't talk to the case specifically. It's before the courts and would be inappropriate for me to talk to the case. But you're right, what's occurred here has, does, send ripples through the broader veteran community and some of the serving community as well. And we're very mindful of that, that it has that impact in many different ways, whether they were close to these what has occurred or alleged to have occurred here or whether just as a member of the Defence community, we're quite conscious of that. We want to make sure people are supported as well. It’s why we have services like Open Arms to be able to provide that mental health and counselling support for personnel, veterans and families if needed. And there's special support programs around those connected to these cases as well. You know, this has been a process that's been going for some time, and that's understandable - its complex and it's difficult. But we do understand there's a real world impact for people that are touched by this and that can create a whole range of responses from people as well. And that's a difficult time for people. We do understand that. But it's important that, you know, this is something that takes its course and goes through the proper processes and give people the opportunity to go through those proper due processes and I can't comment on those because they now commenced.

MCILROY: How should the Australian War Memorial in Canberra deal with the case? Ben Roberts-Smith’s military paraphernalia is on display there. Would the Government like to see a change in the display while this case is working its way through the courts?

KEOGH: So the very, very appropriately as Minister for the War Memorial, the thing I can't do is direct the Counsel of the War Memorial, particularly in respect of things like curatorial decisions. So it's not about my view, and I don't think anyone would want to see the politicisation of how or what we decide are going to be the things that are on display at the War Memorial. We leave that with the Council and with its curatorial team and experts. I think the other thing though, about the museum elements at the War Memorial is that they're there to tell the story of Australia's involvement in war and conflict and peacekeeping operations and the expansion of the War Memorial has meant that we're able to tell those stories better than we have before and in particular give proper representation of Australia's longest ever conflicts like Afghanistan. But it also tells the story, for example, of the protests against the war in Vietnam, the protests and conscription. And it tells the story of the protest against the War in Iraq. It doesn't steer away from or it doesn't, if you like, plaster over areas of controversy. Now, I can certainly understand why some people would take the view that the War Memorial shouldn't have certain things on display. Other people might take the view that if the War Memorial were to take things down, that that may be prejudging outcomes. And so the Council has taken the decision that they provide commentary to explain the context of what's there and its displays, and that's a matter for the council. That's not something I can direct, but it's something they do with their curatorial team to provide the, as I said, the full story. If you go to the War Memorial, you go into the Hall of Remembrance there and you look at the sides and you look at the hundred, over 103,000 names, each name is somebody who has given their life on operations for our country. And each name has its own story. And they're told individually at last post ceremonies every evening of the year. And what the museum element is trying to do is bring those stories in a way that people can understand the full breadth of the story behind our involvement in war, conflict and peacekeeping.

MCILROY: Last week, the Government announced an increase in Defence spending coming up in the Federal Budget on the 12th of May. A new National Defence Strategy, $14 billion in additional spending over the next four years and something like $50 billion over the decade. It's an interesting time. The Government's balancing real challenges in the budget, including cuts to the NDIS. Is it possible that the balance could be askew here that too much money is going to Defence when an important social program like the NDIS has to be cut back?

KEOGH: Well, I think when you look at that additional spending going into Defence, not just over the Forward Estimates but over the decade and it is the most significant increase in Defence spending that we've seen under our Government since the Second World War also reflects the fact that we are now living in the most complex set of geostrategic circumstances since the Second World War. That can't be forgotten.

We are so lucky to live in the country that we do and to have the thriving democracy that we have to have the relative peace and security that we have. And what we want to always do is to make sure that we are doing everything that we need to do to protect that. And there's a number of different elements to that. We can't have programs like the NDIS just run away in expense. We've got to make sure that they operate responsibly and deliver what people anticipated and wanted a program like the NDIS to deliver. We also need to make sure that we continue to live in a thriving democracy that is able to deliver services like the NDIS because of not just our freedom but our capacity to be involved economically in the world. So protecting our trade lanes is incredibly important part of what Defence is there to do should that be required, and we need to make sure that it is best prepared with the capabilities that we need to be able to do that. You don't get one without the other, and that's what the additional spending reflects, is that the circumstances we're operating in now in our region are more complex, they are more complicated. And the timing for when things may get worse are not just something that may happen off in the never, never. They may potentially happen sooner than that. And so we need to make sure we're making the right investments to bring on the capability we need quickly.

MCILROY: Okay, Matt Keogh, it sounds like you've got an interesting Anzac Day coming up in Papua New Guinea, an incredible place to visit. Tell us about your life outside politics. Tell us how you spend time with your family or relax when you're off the clock. No doubt you've got a very busy professional life as well.

KEOGH: Well, certainly when I'm off the clock, as you call it, that means from my family's point of view, I am on the clock. So, you know, I try to use any free time. I've got to make sure I'm spending it with my young boys and with my wife and doing regular things like dropping them at school or taking them to soccer on the weekend.

But if I if I ever get a moment of actual, what you might call Matt free time, I do like to sneak the motorcycle out of the garage and go for a ride. Unfortunately, those times are becoming fewer and fewer between ministerial responsibility and the all-important family responsibility. And, you know, right now I'm a bit of a disillusioned West Coast Eagles supporter. So it's not fun… there's moments of brilliance watching the football. There's, there's hope there, let me tell you. But, you know, I'd like to see a few more wins, obviously, as a as a West Coast Eagles fan and member. But they're the things that I like to do. And, you know, the family grows up very quickly, as I’m becoming very well aware.

And so being able to just go down to the soccer match on the weekend, even just dropping the boys to school in the morning, which I got to do today, it sounds pretty normal and mundane, but I think that they’re important things I like to do, engaging with the fam.

MCILROY: Well, Matt Keogh, thank you for giving us some time. Best of luck for your Anzac Day travel and look forward to having you back on the Australian Politics podcast very soon.

KEOGH: Thanks, Tom it was great and look forward to being back with you again soon.

MCILROY: Thanks for joining us again this week. Remember, you can always write to us at Australian Politics at the Guardian.com. The Executive Producer of the podcast is Allison Chan. I'm Tom McIlroy. Have a great weekend.

ENDS 

Open Arms – Veterans & Families Counselling provides 24/7 free confidential crisis support for current and ex-serving ADF personnel and their families on 1800 011 046 or the Open Arms website. Safe Zone Support provides anonymous counselling on 1800 142 072. Defence All-Hours Support Line provides support for ADF personnel on 1800 628 036 or the Defence Health Portal. Defence Member and Family Helpline provides support for Defence families on 1800 624 608.