Interview on ABC Radio National with Hamish MacDonald

E&OE Transcript
Radio interview
ABC Radio National

AUKUS, submarines, Vietnam War commemorations, flooding and ADF deployment to the Kimberley region

Hamish MacDonald: The government is just months away from a decision on whether to choose nuclear submarines from the US or the UK under the AUKUS agreement. Australia faces a capability gap, though, in its defence before it can get a domestically built submarine into the water. Some advocates say Australia should buy off-the-shelf submarines first. But some in the US fear it already has its own capability issues.

Veterans’ Affairs Minister and the Acting Defence Minister is Matt Keogh, he joins us now. Welcome back to Breakfast. I’m not sure if I can hear you. We might just try that again. Good morning, Matt Keogh.

Matt Keogh: Hi, Hamish, it’s great to be with you.

Hamish MacDonald: Can the government reach its deadline of acquiring nuclear submarines by the end of the next decade in your view?

Matt Keogh: Well, we’re certainly on track for the announcement around where we’re going with the AUKUS arrangement for submarines in the next few months. And we’re tracking that timeline that was previously announced by the previous government around when we’ll have acquisition commence on those submarines. We’re working on that – what is the ideal pathway for acquisition now and being in a position to land that in the next few months. We don’t see any disturbance from that pathway at this stage.

Hamish MacDonald: And are you – has the government been in contact with these US Senators that have raised concerns about the procurement process and the impact on the US construction process of its own submarines?

Matt Keogh: We’re certainly alive to the concerns that were raised in that letter that those congressmen wrote. But we’ve been engaging with the Biden administration very positively. The Prime Minister has had now four meetings with President Biden. Obviously we’ve just had the AUSMIN meeting in December in Washington and as well as the AUKUS Ministers meeting in December in Washington, and the American Government and the UK Government are as committed as the Australian Government to this project and see that there is a pathway forward on how we will go about procuring these submarines.

And the industrial base for all of the three countries – Australia included – is critical to achieving those outcomes and making sure that we’re able to grow the pie by bringing the Australian industrial base into those existing industrial bases is very important.

Hamish MacDonald: So when you say bring it in to those industrial bases, purely for the purposes of building the Australian operated submarines, or are you saying that this would be part of a network of submarine construction?

Matt Keogh: So it’s important from an Australian point of view that there’s Australian involvement in the construction of these submarines as we move forward. But it’s important also that we’re not detracting from the industrial bases of the UK and the US, and that’s part of the considerations as we move forward, and we’ll be obviously look at announcing those things when we get – in the next few months once those issues are finalised.

But in terms of growing the Australian industrial base, we identified this as an issue when we were in opposition as well, that it’s important that we do grow the Australian industrial base not just to support submarines but to support our defence capability more generally looking at things like missile technology, for example, as well but also to grow the broader Australian industrial base. We need to be a country that makes things here, whether that’s in defence industry or across the board.

Hamish MacDonald: Obviously foremost in the minds of many Australians listening this morning will be the capability gap. There is a long period of time required to get this whole thing up and running. What options do we have for those years in the interim?

Matt Keogh: Well, we are going through a process of extending the life of the existing Collins Class submarine to keep that capability in the water and operational, and that’s a very important part of meeting those challenges, and we’re looking at a number of upgrades associated with that life extension for the Collins Class submarine as well.

In addition to that, though, there are other platforms and technologies that we’re looking at implementing across the Defence Force. These are all matters being considered right now by the Defence Strategic Review. That will also be something that will be reporting to government in the next few months and these two things – the AUKUS proposal and the Defence Strategic Review – work together in making sure that we’re clear about what any gaps may be and also how we are best placed to fill them.

Hamish MacDonald: China’s Ambassador has been speaking publicly in Australia, has warned that the AUKUS deal will end up as a costly mistake. Do you interpret that as a threat?

Matt Keogh: Not at all. The comments that were made yesterday are the same sort of comments that China has made about the AUKUS deal since it was initially announced. We’re familiar with the concern that China has raised, but putting that to one side, I think the more important element of what was spoken about yesterday by the Chinese Ambassador was the improving of the relationship that comes from a new government here in Australia and looking at how we can improve those trade relationships in particular with China, reopening those markets for Australia into China, which I think is a very positive sign and a positive message that came out of that speech from the Chinese Ambassador.

Hamish MacDonald: Interestingly, the Ambassador waged a war of words, if you want to put it that way, on the Japanese Ambassador, who warned Canberra against sort of believing too much of what China is saying. In return, the Chinese Ambassador seemed to suggest that Japan could once again pose a military threat. What do you make of this dialogue?

Matt Keogh: Well, again, this is not sort of rhetoric that we haven’t heard before from China about other countries like Japan. But I don’t think we need to be getting ourselves concerned into playing day-to-day commentary on what one country says about another country in speeches like this. What we take out of the speech yesterday is really the positive signs that it does show about an improvement of the relationship which we said needed to happen and is now happening under our government and that improves the economic circumstance for Australia as well.

Hamish MacDonald: Respectfully, this is not day-to-day diplomacy. I mean, the Chinese Ambassador was talking about the Second World War, Japan invading Australia, it bombed Darwin, never apologised for it. This is fairly extraordinary stuff.

Matt Keogh: Look, it’s, as I said before, not rhetoric that we haven’t heard before. And it’s – and whilst it doesn’t happen every day, and that’s appropriate because, as you mentioned at the intro, diplomacy is something usually best conducted behind closed doors. It’s not something that is useful for us as a government to provide running commentary on those sorts of things that are being – concerns expressed between two other countries.

Hamish MacDonald: Does it tell us anything, though? Does it inform us in any way about the way China sees not just us but the region?

Matt Keogh: Well, certainly there’s things that can be taken out of that, and I think China has always made clear that it wants to play an ever-increasing role in our region. And it making comments around other countries in the region demonstrates that, and I don’t think that comes as a surprise to anyone.

Hamish MacDonald: Today marks the 50th anniversary since the proclamation to end Australia’s involvement in the Vietnam War. You’re also the Veterans’ Affairs Minister. Clearly the Chinese and the Japanese are very alive to the history of this region. How much of recent history informs the decisions we are making today about the future?

Matt Keogh: Well, I think from a veterans point of view in particular today we’re commemorating, you know, the 50th anniversary of the proclamation by the Governor-General ending Australia’s involvement in the Vietnam War. This is the first of a number of commemorations as part of recognising Australians’ involvement in that war, and its 50 years since that came to an end – 60,000 Australians were involved in that war; 3,000 were injured and 523 lost their lives.

In terms of informing what it means for us today for veterans, we’ve learnt a lot out of that veteran cohort because they were in first that really came – allowed us to come to an understanding of things like PTSD and the mental health impacts of war and combat, and Australia has now led the way on treatment and providing support for people with those conditions. There’s a lot more to do obviously, but we have actually been able to grow a lot from those experiences, despite some of the very negative sort of feedback and reactions that those veterans experienced at the end of that war.

Hamish MacDonald: How valuable is it, though, to talk about, reflect on, think about how easily our region of the world can and has fractured?

Matt Keogh: I think it’s always important as we think today – we experience some of the most difficult and complex geostrategic circumstances that we’ve confronted since the Second World War – to recognise that it's important that we’re alive to what’s happening in our region and that we are not an isolated continent at the south of the globe but that we play an important role in our region and the globe, and that’s why it’s important that we take steps like AUKUS, that we take steps like engagement with our region, strong engagement with our partners, economically as well as we were talking about before, but also that when we are involved in conflict that we always appropriately look after our veterans as well.

Hamish MacDonald: A quick question about the floods in WA – your home state has seen so much devastation from the flooding in the Kimberley region. There’s around about 200 ADF members there as I understand it right now bringing critical supplies to isolated communities. There’s obviously been calls for dedicated emergency response teams within the ADF. Do you think that that might be appropriate given how frequently we are needing our Defence Forces to respond to natural disasters?

Matt Keogh: Well, clearly the primary response to these sorts of emergencies is that of the states. But we do and are very happy to provide that additional support from the Defence Force. In terms of the force structure and how that is best positioned to deal with our geostrategic position as well as these sorts of natural emergencies, that is being addressed and looked at by the Defence Strategic Review, and we’ll be able to say more about that when we receive it in the next few months.

Hamish MacDonald: Matt Keogh, thanks for your time this morning.

Matt Keogh: Great to be with you.

Hamish MacDonald: That’s the Veterans’ Affairs Minister and the Acting Defence Minister, Matt Keogh.

[End]

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