Interview, 6PR, Mornings with Liam Bartlett

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
6PR MORNINGS WITH LIAM BARTLETT

SPEAKER: In the left corner, federal Labor member for Burt, Matt Keogh. And in the right corner, federal Liberal member for Canning, Andrew Hastie.

LIAM BARTLETT: And a very good morning, Matt Keogh, Minister.

MATT KEOGH: Good morning, Liam. And good morning, Andrew.

LIAM BARTLETT: Shadow Minister, Andrew.

ANDREW HASTIE: Good morning, Liam and Matt. Good to be here.

LIAM BARTLETT: Nice to have you back both in the studio.

MATT KEOGH: It’s always a pleasure to be in person. Although we had the – Andrew and I had the in-person experience last time from Canberra, but we did miss you, Liam.

LIAM BARTLETT: That’s right. In our very plush Hollywood Canberra studio.

ANDREW HASTIE: That’s right. And you’re wearing a tie today, Liam.

LIAM BARTLETT: I just thought I’d lift the standard, because, you know, you blokes are always coming in here full of sartorial elegance. And just think, you know, I’ve got to try and catch up.

MATT KEOGH: Well, the listeners appreciate the effort that you’ve gone to on their behalf, Liam.

LIAM BARTLETT: Yes, thanks very much. It must be nice to be back in Perth and not have a sitting week.

MATT KEOGH: It’s been wonderful to be back in Perth actually. We were just discussing the colder climes that have been over east, but it has been a bit cool over here at night.

ANDREW HASTIE: That’s right. Well, I’ve been two weeks on the road in Brisbane for Land Forces last week. And then I spent time in Far North Queensland, Townsville, and got home from Rockhampton yesterday.

LIAM BARTLETT: Yeah, so the frequent flyers balance is going through the roof.

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, a lot of time on aircraft. But certainly, it’s great to get out there and see regional Australia, talk to mainstream Aussies and see what’s on their mind.

LIAM BARTLETT: Now, speaking of mainstream Aussies, the RSL, which says they represent many mainstream Aussies in the veteran's community – this is right in your portfolio, Matt – are very upset with these plans by the National War Memorial to increase the exhibits around so-called frontier wars. What’s your position on this?

MATT KEOGH: So we’re happy that the War Memorial has taken the decision that it has taken. It’s a decision taken by the Council of the War Memorial. The member of that council were all appointed by the previous Liberal government, and, in fact, the RSL is represented on that council. I met with the RSL National Council yesterday. They didn’t raise any concerns with me about this.

I think it’s important to appreciate that what the council is proposing to do by expanding the display of some of its collection that reflects on frontier conflict, that it’s about putting all Australian war effort and the effort at home into context and provide some context around that and Australian battles and how Aboriginal people have defended their land in earlier times in Australia’s history.

But it’s also important that this isn’t just a discussion about the Australian War Memorial. Certainly, it’s the case that in terms of telling the truth of our past as a nation there should be reflection on these parts of our history –

LIAM BARTLETT: No doubt, but that’s not –

MATT KEOGH: – through all ranges of institutions and making sure it’s done properly.

LIAM BARTLETT: That’s not the issue. That’s not the issue. The recognition is not the issue. So let’s not sideline it – it’s the position. It’s the place.

MATT KEOGH: Yeah.

LIAM BARTLETT: It’s the place where it’s going to be displayed. That’s the issue.

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, Liam, the Coalition position is that we are opposed to introducing any sort of exhibition or historical elements which detract from the purpose of the War Memorial. And the purpose of the War Memorial is to commemorate Australia’s fallen – those who have died in conflict defending our country.

Now the War Memorial was established by the Australian Official Historian Charles Bean of the First World War, who wanted to remember those who died – the 60,000 Australians who died in France, in Gallipoli and the Middle East. And the architecture of the building itself reflects Bean. That’s why it has the dome and it looks Byzantine because, you know, it’s tied up with World War I.

LIAM BARTLETT: Beautiful. It’s beautiful.

ANDREW HASTIE: It’s a memorial. So it’s there to remind us of the virtues of sacrifice, service and – and so I think there’s a new cultural precinct that’s being built for Indigenous Australians to recognise their –

LIAM BARTLETT: Yeah, what about this? Because the RSL says that’s the place for it.

ANDREW HASTIE: Yeah.

LIAM BARTLETT: That was announced during your last term of government.

ANDREW HASTIE: That’s right, $320 million was committed to it. Ngurra It’s called.

LIAM BARTLETT: Okay, does Matt – Matt, do you think that’s the place for it?

MATT KEOGH: Well, absolutely there should be representation at that location. But it’s important to understand what the War Memorial Council has decided here. One of the things they point out, you know, talking as Andrew did about making sure that we properly reflect on the sacrifice made of those in the First World War and subsequent wars is that there were a group of Australians who signed up, volunteered to participate in that war even though they weren’t recognised as citizens of our country, fought in that war as equals, as peers with their fellow soldiers, but then also returned to Australia and then went back to not being recognised as full Australians.

LIAM BARTLETT: Yeah, but we’ve changed that. We’ve changed that. That’s not the issue. That’s not the issue. We’re talking about the colonial past.

ANDREW HASTIE: And, you know, Liam, we recognise the frontier wars. I’m part of – I represent an electorate that has the –

LIAM BARTLETT: The Pinjarra massacre.

ANDREW HASTIE: The Pinjarra massacre. It’s very important that we remember these things. But we’ve just got to be careful about the purpose of these national institutions. Ngurra is going to tell the Indigenous Australian story, and the War Memorial commemorates our war dead. They’re two different things. And we think – the Coalition thinks the frontier wars should be displayed and represented in Ngurra.

LIAM BARTLETT: But, Matt, Minister, if the RSL who represents the veterans are saying – and they’re saying it quite clearly; they put out a press release – that’s their position, and they’re saying they’re getting feedback from veterans saying they don’t want it, shouldn’t we be listening to the veterans?

MATT KEOGH: Sure, I listen to all veterans across the 3,500-plus ex-service organisations, of which the RSL is but one. And the RSL’s voice was clearly heard because the President of the RSL is a member of the council –

LIAM BARTLETT: It’s got one vote.

MATT KEOGH: But he was a member of the council that took this decision. This wasn’t my decision.

LIAM BARTLETT: Matt, he’s on the front page of The Australian today and he doesn’t want it.

MATT KEOGH: I saw it, and I spoke to him yesterday.

LIAM BARTLETT: Well, he says he doesn’t want it? Is he lying.

MATT KEOGH: I read it. I’ve spoken to him yesterday. I understand that’s his view. The Council of the War Memorial has said its view is that it would be appropriate to have some contextual reflection on this in the War Memorial. It’s not saying it’s replacing a whole heap of stuff but just that it would be appropriate to have some of these things exhibited. And that was the decision that it took. I think that is a good decision, but I don’t think we should blow this out of proportion either. And, yes, I understand that’s the President of the RSL’s view, but it’s not a view that reflects all veterans or all positions in Australian society.

ANDREW HASTIE: In the final analysis, the Coalition’s position is that we think the War Memorial is a national institution, it’s above politics. It reminds us of service, sacrifice and duty, and we oppose any sort of exhibition that brings political debate inside a place that should be sacred and a place of remembrance for our war dead.

LIAM BARTLETT: All right, let’s move on. Former colleague of yours, Andrew Hastie, Joe Hockey was also former US Ambassador. He now says there’s a 30 per cent chance – not sure where Joe dreams up the figure – a 30 per cent chance that Vladimir Putin will use nuclear weapons in Ukraine. What do you think of that?

MATT KEOGH: I don’t know where he’s taken that figure from either. I wasn’t aware of the remarks that he has made on that issue. Certainly –

LIAM BARTLETT: Are you worried about –

MATT KEOGH: Well, I’m worried about everything that Putin may do and what he is doing in Ukraine and the work now with the Belarusians on that effort as well and the recent missile attacks that have been made on civilians in Ukraine. It’s absolutely terrible, and we stand with Ukraine, as the previous government did, because –

LIAM BARTLETT: We do, we do, we do. That’s the official position.

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, that’s right. I always question percentages when we’re talking about the risk of nuclear weapons.

LIAM BARTLETT: Yep, yep.

ANDREW HASTIE: But ever since the Second World War there’s always been the risk of nuclear weapons. And I think Vladimir Putin is perhaps the most dangerous man to have nuclear weapons in a long time. And I’m concerned about his mental state, as we all are. And obviously appointing that new general – I think he’s called the Armageddon General – the guy who wiped out Aleppo, you know, they are going to use a lot of offensive fires to reduce the Ukrainian will to fight. And we can’t rule out the use of nuclear weapons in that.

LIAM BARTLETT: It’s disturbing. But when you say we stand with Ukraine, Matt, so why aren’t we isolating these people here in Australia? Why aren’t we isolating the Russians absolutely? I mean, now we’ve got a report where there’s a Greens senator – a senator – a New South Wales Liberal Minister and a President of the New South Wales Liberal Party, two New South Wales Labor MPs who attended a dinner with the Russian envoy invited by the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils. I mean, why are we inviting these people to dinner?

ANDREW HASTIE: Why is the Federation of Islamic Councils inviting the Russian Ambassador? That’s the first question.

LIAM BARTLETT: Absolutely. Absolutely.

ANDREW HASTIE: Why aren’t the diary managers for those three people you mentioned doing their due diligence and finding out who will be there? And then when they were at the dinner and they did find out that the Russian Ambassador was there why didn’t they just stand up and leave? Because that’s what I would do.

LIAM BARTLETT: Why would you invite this bloke to dinner?

MATT KEOGH: I have no idea why you would be inviting this bloke to dinner at all. It just seems – it’s very odd, and it’s not something that anyone would be endorsing at all.

LIAM BARTLETT: I’m still amazed that he’s in the country, that he’s still allowed to stay in the ambassador’s residence, Matt.

ANDREW HASTIE: Exactly.

MATT KEOGH: Well, I mean, we have ambassadors from all over the world that are here and having that proper engagement. There was a period when the Ambassador from Moscow did leave and was not here.

LIAM BARTLETT: Well, why don’t we chuck him out?

MATT KEOGH: Well, we’re not actually at war with Russia, I might point out.

LIAM BARTLETT: Well, mate, hang on a minute – these people are sending missiles in and killing innocent men, women and children. Cities across Ukraine, and we just – what – we just let the ambassador stay in his cushy little spot in Canberra?

MATT KEOGH: Well, no, what we’re I think primarily concerned about is, one, standing with Ukraine and making sure that, you know, we’re able to provide them with whatever assistance we can provide them, but having –

LIAM BARTLETT: That’s not standing with Ukraine.

MATT KEOGH: -- and maintaining diplomatic channels is always important there.

ANDREW HASTIE: Liam, I think one thing that we can do more of is provide support to Ukraine. As President Zelenskyy himself said, he doesn’t need a ride, he needs ammo. We’ve contributed a lot of lethal aid already to the Ukrainians. They need more. You’ve seen the photo yesterday on Instagram of the Ukrainian Ambassador at a table with Richard Marles asking him for more support. The Coalition calls on the government to commit to supporting –

LIAM BARTLETT: But you’ve got to do more than that. You’ve got to do more than that, don’t you? On a political level, a social level. I mean, we’ve got Bill Browder in the national press – the international press today, he’s a guy who knows exactly what Vladimir Putin is like. I mean, he’s been under, you know, death threats from Putin himself personally. He’s saying, “Look, we should be doing more to convince the likes of India, South Africa, China not to do business with Russia at all.” Say, “Look, you want to do business with us, it’s either us or them.” That’s the way to force the war to a closure.

ANDREW HASTIE: I certainly think that Australia has a role to play in building that coalition against Russia, absolutely.

LIAM BARTLETT: Let’s take a call. Craig’s on the line. Hello, Craig. Good morning.

CRAIG: Good morning, gentlemen. Matt, this is directed at yourself: we spoke briefly in May, prior to the election, and I said in the context that one thing politicians could do is actually engage directly with their constituents when there’s an issue to be addressed. And I raised two specific points: one that had been around since 2017 and one since 2013. I’ll congratulate you and your staff that contacted me that afternoon. But as yet here we are five months down the track and still no progression with any politician actually addressing the issues that I’ve raised with your team. And, one, the federal one was essentially fobbed off and there’s been no response. And the state one is where it’s been sitting the whole time and no movement. So I’m just wondering where we’re at with actually getting politicians to engage.

MATT KEOGH: Well, Craig, firstly, I apologise if you feel like you haven’t got the communication and engagement that you deserve, and I’m certainly happy to follow up those two matters for you to make sure that we get back to you on both of those matters. But certainly, you know, as you said, my staff did get back to you straight away, and if we’ve dropped the ball in there then we’ll certainly pick it up and come back to you on both of those matters, because it is important that we have a continual dialogue, I think, with, you know, our electors and the Australian community as a government as well to make sure that we’re getting the feedback from you and you’re getting the answers to the questions you may have or the assistance that you need.

LIAM BARTLETT: Craig, just hold the line for a second. We’ll grab – we’ll make sure we grab your details and we’ll pass them on to Matt so he can follow that up. We’ll come back in just a moment here on the morning program.

LIAM BARTLETT: Let’s go to the phones. Ian has a question. Hello, Ian.

IAN: Yes, Hello, how are you going?

LIAM BARTLETT: Good morning.

IAN: I’ve got a question for the two gentlemen there who are in charge of our state security. What do you know of the coup in Ukraine in 2014 and who was responsible for that – who funded it, who organised it? I’d be very interested to know what your response is.

ANDREW HASTIE: Ian, can I just ask you, are you suggesting there was a coup conducted by the west in Ukraine to remove the government?

IAN: Of course there was.

ANDREW HASTIE: Sorry?

IAN: Of course there was.

ANDREW HASTIE: I’ll just yield to you, if you could just make your view known, and then we could respond.

LIAM BARTLETT: He says of course it was.

IAN: All right, so first of all you’re all aware of the character around the world George Soros who’s been promoting colour revolutions over multiple countries over the last 30 or 40 years.

LIAM BARTLETT: Okay, Ian, we’re not going to – I’m not going to get into a dissertation on global world order and all the theories that go with it. Do you want to comment on that?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, all I can say is that Ukraine is a territorial – it has territorial sovereignty. That sovereignty has been impinged upon by the Russian military, by the Russian government. A lot of people have died, and I believe that we should support the Ukrainians in their defence of their country.

LIAM BARTLETT: You’re happy with their sovereignty?

ANDREW HASTIE: Yeah, absolutely.

LIAM BARTLETT: Matt?

MATT KEOGH: It’s a democratically elected government. It’s a sovereign country. Just like Australia would defend itself, we support the independence of democratically elected sovereign nations.

LIAM BARTLETT: Matt Keogh, here’s a question for you from Ray on text: “Mr Keogh, are you and your party going to send Aussie defence personnel to their deaths in Ukraine? Why? Also, why are Aussie taxpayers funding unlimited fiscal help to Ukraine? What about other countries and their dollars?”

MATT KEOGH: So we’re not sending any troops into Ukraine. We are listening to and engaging with Ukraine about their further requests for support and assistance, and we will always listen to those and we’re considering those things as they raise them as they’re raising them with us at the moment.

LIAM BARTLETT: I think it was a suggestion from Richard Marles, wasn’t there on sending trainers or something? But the Ukrainians have made it quite clear they don’t need those sorts of people.

MATT KEOGH: Precisely. We’re engaging with Ukraine about what their requests are and how we can assist with those, always are many, many countries around the world, especially, you know, the United States and European countries across the board. They are engaging in supporting Ukraine with providing them with capability and assistance so that they are best placed to be able to defend their sovereign integrity and their nation against a violent aggressor that is Russia.

ANDREW HASTIE: Air defence is really critical here. I think the Russians fired 70 missiles and I think only, you know, less than 50 per cent of those got through. So air defence is absolutely critical. And that’s why there are ways that we can support without becoming militarily involved ourselves.

LIAM BARTLETT: All right, so no personnel full stop?

MATT KEOGH: We’re not sending Australian defence personnel into Ukraine.

ANDREW HASTIE: That would be highly provocative.

LIAM BARTLETT: Okay, Ray, there’s your answer. 

LIAM BARTLETT: All right. We’ll have to leave it there gentlemen, I’m sorry. But thank you very much for coming in.

MATT KEOGH: Thank you, Liam

LIAM BARTLETT: Good to see you both.

ANDREW HASTIE: Thank you, Liam. Likewise.

LIAM BARTLETT: Matt Keogh and Andrew Hastie.

END

 

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