The Hon Bruce Billson MP
Interview – 2SM with Leon Delaney, 4 October 2006, 9:41 am
Subject – Exhumation of remains on Christmas Island believed to be those of a survivor of HMAS Sydney sunk during World War II.

LEON DELANEY: Federal Minister for Defence Personnel and Veterans Affairs, Bruce Billson, good morning.

BRUCE BILLSON: Good morning to you Leon, and your listeners.

LEON DELANEY: How are you today?

BRUCE BILLSON: Very well and I hope you're well too.

LEON DELANEY: Very well. Often, we get together to talk about very controversial things, but this is actually something of great interest to many people, without being necessarily contemporary or commercial. Apparently there's been a discovering relating to the loss of the HMAS Sydney during World War Two. The discovery is the remains of somebody who may have been a survivor from that sinking.

BRUCE BILLSON: Yes, it's a cause for cautious optimism. HMAS Sydney II was sunk by the Kormoran, a German ship that took out our ship off the coast of Western Australia back in November 19, 1941. All of the 645 men on board lost their lives. And at this stage, we have not actually been able to locate the ship, even though there's some efforts going on to locate the ship. But at the time, three months after the sinking, Leon, a Carley float, with the partially decomposed remains of what people thought may have been someone from the ship, travelled more than two and a half thousand kilometres north-west of where the sinking was thought to have occurred. And was recovered off the coast of Christmas Island, and buried on Christmas Island. And of course, all the family members and loved ones of those that lost their lives, have been curious now for more than half a century about this particular body, the remains, and whether they did come from HMAS Sydney. And since that time there's been enthusiasts, family members, naval historians within the Australian Defence Force trying to piece together the picture. We had a visit over to Christmas Island on 2001, and that team failed to locate where these remains were thought to have been buried. But recently, a former member of the navy, who was on Christmas Island just a few years after the incident, came forward with a photograph and said, we think it's here, and put us in touch also with someone who was living on the island and knew the cemetery quite well. So we went back again and our team over there have identified some remains, which give us cause for some cautious optimism.

LEON DELANEY: Cautious being the word, because it is quite a tenuous thread, isn't it?

BRUCE BILLSON: Well it is. I mean a couple of things have happened. There's even been a Senate inquiry conducted into this matter in 1999, and there some of the information coming forward, basically said there's not enough material evidence to confirm that these remains were from someone onboard HMAS Sydney. But there's equally not a lot of information to suggest that it wasn't the case either. So there's always been this question mark over where have these remains come from, where actually are they buried on Christmas Island, where the climate's quite ferocious and vegetation and growth and storms and the monsoonal weathers actually change the very nature of the landscape in that area. And frankly, I'm told that because the Japanese shortly occupied Christmas Island after the tragedy, there was some effort made to remove any sign of any military presence on the island, with the hope that it wouldn't cause concern and instigate more vigorous activity by the occupying forces. So it's a fascinating story. But our team over there, which includes senior navy people; we've got anthropologists on the ground over there; we've got forensic experts, and particularly with an interest in teeth. Because the legend there points to the remains having magnificent teeth, almost perfect teeth, which was thought to be quite unusual for the time.But just as Mother Nature's been unkind with the cemetery site itself, Leon, we've been blessed that there's a high alkaline content in the soil over there, with a fairly high calcium composition. And that seems to have kept the remains in reasonable shape, although it's not clear at this stage whether there's a viable DNA sample. But our team are working busily over there to carefully remove all dirt, and to see what remains can be recovered to enable further examination back here in Australia.

LEON DELANEY: Even with the benefit of all of our modern technology, and possibly even DNA analysis, what's the likelihood of actually getting an identification for these remains?

BRUCE BILLSON: Look, frankly it is remote. It is remote. The techniques that are involved, and I must say the personnel involved, are world class. But it all comes back to the viability of the sample that we can recover, and then the step of actually comparing it to another DNA sample, to make that link. You'd be aware, you and I spoke at lengths after the tragedy of the tsunami, where we were trying to identify remains, and there the task involved trying to recover some current DNA samples, perhaps from a hairbrush or something like that, that could be compared to the DNA recovered with the remains, and then to make a match.
You could imagine how difficult it would be to find sufficient samples and to carry out that analysis to confirm identification. The other thing is, about half of all the medical records at the time of enlistment have been recovered. Sadly, a lot of the other medical records went down with the ship. So there is some information available, but certainly not a complete picture, but there's a great deal of commitment to trying to identifying these remains, as best we can, if not down to the individual themselves, some effort to confirm that they were from HMAS Sydney.

LEON DELANEY: Unusual, I guess, that there was nothing on the Carley float itself to identify where it came from. Wouldn't something like that from a naval vessel have some sort of identifying feature?

BRUCE BILLSON: Yes. And that's one of the things that has been examined over the years. Shortly after the remains were recovered Leon, the navy said, oh we don't think that's one of our floats. Some 50 years later at the Senate inquiry, people were saying well, that may have been the thought at the time, but where else would it have come from? So there was almost this, if it's not from Sydney, where could it have come from? Oceanographers have studied the tidal patterns and the like to see … and the currents to see whether it's conceivable that a float some three months later, could have travelled two and a half thousand kilometres from where it was thought the contact between the Kormoran and the Sydney occurred to find itself off the coast from Christmas Island. Another confounding factor was the coveralls - the overalls - that were on the remains, appeared to have been blue, but bleached white from the elements. Now that's also a confounding factor, because that's not normally the kind of overalls navy personnel would wear. But as you and I and your listeners know, often our serving members might purchase their own, for reasons of comfort or some other reason.But also, there were six RAAF personnel on board, who would ordinarily wear a blue kind of coverall. So there's a little bit of optimism, and then cause for some pessimism. A little bit of positive news, a little bit of confounding news, but it's an incredible mystery emanating from what was Australia's greatest military disaster with the ship sinking, with all those 645 men on board.

LEON DELANEY: Yes and if there is some sort of positive identification made, I would guess then that there would be some sort of permanent memorial created, not only for that particular individual, but for all of the crew on board the Sydney.

BRUCE BILLSON: Well there are a number of memorials for that crew linked to the sinking of the ship on the west coast, what would happen, where there is sufficient information to confirm that these remains are from someone from on board the ship, then a formal military burial would occur. The nearest practicable war cemetery is actually at Geraldton, and the Office of War Graves would oversee the proper interment of these remains with all the respect and duty that comes from our nation to people that have served and lost their lives in the service of our country.

LEON DELANEY: And also, of course, a new opportunity for us to restore some of the memory of our very fine history and bring that to people.

BRUCE BILLSON: Well that's right, and I think that's what's captivated so much interest in this story. I mean a search for these remains, and then the efforts to try and link them back to the ship, have been going on for decades now, Leon. But the story of HMAS Sydney itself is quite remarkable, how the German raider Kormoran got so close and then had such success in sinking her, and then the sinking of the Kormoran itself. I mean there's material about this at the Australian War Memorial, but this just draws out that incredible story, and reminds us that the good fortune, the peace and prosperity we enjoy in Australia came at great cost. And that's why we have a special duty to all those that have served, and where we are in a position to recover the remains of the war dead, we need to do so with great care and great effort and great vigour, as is being displayed in this case, to make sure they're laid to rest in the appropriate, proper and dignified manner that they deserve.

LEON DELANEY: Yes, and of course that lesson remains the case, regardless of the outcome of this investigation.

BRUCE BILLSON: That's right, and what's terrific is the energy that people have brought forward. I mean Mr O'Shannassy's actually the formal … former naval signaller who was posted to Christmas Island in the early '50s. His knowledge has been just invaluable. He was … he'd heard, first hand, from somebody that was present when the remains were buried, and learned a great deal from them. And had the wherewithal to take a photograph at that time, back in 1950.
He … his information and the information from a former resident, who was actually the son of a cook on the island, and things being as they were at that time, he wasn't allowed to play with the rest of the kids. He was allowed to play only in the vicinity of where he lived, and that happened to include the cemetery. So he had an intimate knowledge of that area. The two of them, separately, were interviewed by some of our navy historian personnel, pointed to almost the same site on the map. And we, well I, felt that after the efforts in 2001 proving not successful, we now had sufficient information to have another go. So Mr O'Shannassy's over there with our expedition team, and we're benefiting from his knowledge and it's proved very useful. So it's a terrific story all round. And we're cautiously optimistic that by the end of this week, all of the available remains that can be recovered with great care, will have been recovered and brought to Sydney, where the University of Sydney will be carrying out some further forensic analysis.

LEON DELANEY: Bruce Billson, thanks very much for your time today.

BRUCE BILLSON: You're welcome, Leon. Thanks to you and your listeners.

LEON DELANEY: Bruce Billson, the Federal Minister for Defence Personnel and Veterans Affairs.